Don’t remember the last time the Democrats had military storming our streets and black bagging US residents en masse and deporting them to war zones like South Sudan or Libya despite those people having zero ties to those countries.
This reeks of fucking shitpost right-wing propaganda.
Edit: here come all the “but the US/CIA did all this fucked up stuff to other countries under Dems, too!”
JFC, the current “president” who is GOP literally yells about wanting to deport/arrest political opponents, censor TV personalities (e.g. Colbert, Fallon, etc), openly calls to suppress political opposition in voting, openly supports ignoring the courts when they interfere with his blatantly unconstitutional actions, etc etc .
Yes, the Dems aren’t fucking innocent, but to pretend they’re the same as a party that’s openly trying to “take back the Nazi word” is fucking insane.
war zones like South Sudan or Libya despite those people having zero ties to those countries.
Damn I wonder why Libya is like that!
You absolute ghouls literally don’t see foreigners as human
I dont think there is a lib alive who remembers the dems role in the destruction of Libya other than those directly involved in it.
True, most of them don’t remember as far back as last year
since the end of ww2 the two major coup d’états in brazil happened with direct support of the department of state and the cia under dem administration (johnson was in power in 64 and obama, with hillary clinton in charge of the department of state, in 2016). we’ve got a story or two to tell about them. if the regular lib doesn’t care about that, then the most natural thing for us is to consider both parties equally harmful and don’t give a damn over internal issues of the us and a.
Mostly because of Qaddafi.
good to know it’s a-okay to destroy entire countries over 1 guy. Bonus points if brown, amirite?
🙄
You need to read more.
Off the top off my head the national guard during the george floyd protest that got called in by tim walz. Even trump was “impressed”
Yes, because those circumstances were completely the same as what’s going on now.
And that makes it acceptable?
People had literally burned down police stations and mass looting was occurring. Their police force was completely overrun. Don’t act like it was remotely the same thing.
I have several friends in Minneapolis that are very progressive. There were tons of people who were legit scared during periods of that for numerous reasons. It wasn’t “acceptable,” but what the fuck else do you do when law and order begins to completely breakdown?
Maybe reform the law and order that regularly lets Police murder citizens because they feel like it?
You know, how the protestors demanded before their peaceful protest got beaten up in order to escalate violence to deligitimize the demands and present the violent police as necessary.
I don’t disagree. I was simply providing context, which the other comment I responded to wasn’t addressing.
It wasn’t “acceptable,” but what the fuck else do you do when law and order begins to completely breakdown?
if it isn’t acceptable it isn’t acceptable period. “this was the only way” literally means that you think it was acceptable.
I put it in quotes because I wasn’t meaning it to be so exact.
But whatever, I’m done arguing with enlightened centrists.
So you do think the kidnapping off the streets into unmarked vans by the military was somewhat acceptable when the democrats called for it? At least have the gut to come out and say it
Obama has the record for deportations
the Democrats had military storming our streets and black bagging US residents en masse
The Posse Comitatus Act is what generally prevents military from “black bagging US residents” and leaves that job to police.
Texas was the first state to allow for the national guard to assist in immigration efforts back in 2021. Democrats did nothing to stop, delay or prevent the expansion of those powers which were further pushed and nationalized in 2025.
The other loophole is invoking the insurrection act. While Biden did not involve it it was repeatedly threatened during the Gaza war protests, however the protests never got too riotous for the Dems to risk damaging their image and the local police were perfectly capable of documenting and black bagging people for it.
The cases of Kahlil and Mahdawi where Trump attended to deport individuals participating in those protests was made possible by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952. That specific bill was introduced by the Democrats, passed the Democratic majority House and Senate, Vetoed by Democratic president Truman before being overridden by the house/Senate.
You are correct that they are “not the same”, but stating that the shield of your enemy is your friend, just because it isn’t a sword is fucking insane.
The problem is that both parties are right wings, only one somewhat more extreme. Both defends the rights of big corporations, billonairs and less or nothing those of the rest of the people. Public services, labor rights and even basic rights, like health and education are a bad joke in the US and only available if you have money. Now with Trump it goes even worse.
They’re not the same. The Dems stand back and shake their fist/wring their hands when the Repubs have power and run roughshod over them. Then when the Dems have power they allow their efforts to be thwarted by the Repubs and gesture helplessly when in fact they could just push things through themselves.
Also the DNC is a malfunctioning toilet that costs elections, implying that they think it’s better to have a pro-establishment Repub in power than a Dem maverick.
Removed by mod
Everything except complete submission to the US State department reeks of Russian propaganda to .worlders
deleted by creator
Yeah, wouldn’t want to consume any true, but politically inconvenient posts
/s
Democrats
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Retain marriage rights for gay couples.
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Expand legality of recreational drugs.
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Free food for schoolchildren.
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Tax credits for families with children.
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Subsidized for free childcare.
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Expand electric car charging nationally.
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Subsidize sustainable fuel sources.
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Fact based education standards.
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Stop racism in policing.
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Expanded healthcare subsidies.
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Preserve democracy.
Republicans
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Being gay or trans should be illegal.
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White supremacy is great!
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Christianity as national religion.
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Privatize the post office and weather service.
*Eliminate the EPA, Department of Education.
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Defund IRS.
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Disenfranchise nonwhites and women.
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Antivax agenda.
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Expand fossil fuel use.
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Eliminate worker safety laws.
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Eliminate collective bargaining and union rights.
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Defunding science research.
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Deregulate crypto.
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No regulations on AI.
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No recognition of child’s educational or bodily autonomy rights.
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Eliminate hate crime laws except for straight white men.
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End democracy, install fascist dictatorship.
But yeah, they are totally the same, right guys? RIGHT!?!
Fact based education standards.
Teaching a bunch of lies about American exceptionalism and how imperialism is actually good isn’t what I’d call “fact based”
Stop racism in policing
Right like how democrats in nearly all major cities increased police funding and almost none passed any meaningful reform.
Expanded healthcare subsidies
But don’t remotely consider universal healthcare
Preserve democracy
Preserve the status quo which I wouldn’t call a democracy. A democracy enacts the will of the people, democrats don’t even have a democratic primary for their own party.
Teaching a bunch of lies about American exceptionalism and how imperialism is actually good isn’t what I’d call “fact based”
That’s a right thing, not a left thing.
Right like how democrats in nearly all major cities increased police funding and almost none passed any meaningful reform.
A lot of left leaning places pushed consent decrees, for example:
https://www.chicagopolice.org/community-policing-group/consent-decree/
But don’t remotely consider universal healthcare
The list time Democrats had a filibuster-proof trifecta it was for about 2 months and they passed Obamacare. Since then Republicans have nullified about 40% of it.
Preserve the status quo which I wouldn’t call a democracy.
Except by definition it is a democracy. Like it or not, most people vote for the status quo.
Except by definition it is a democracy.
Barely.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index#List_by_country
I think you dropped this:
Democrats & Republicans
- Bombed kids
- Tortured innocent people
- Increased the surveillance state
- Took money from the poor and working class, and gave it to their rich friends
- Spent billions on wars, while claiming that they couldn’t afford to fix our healthcare or housing problems
- Boasted about deporting more people than Republicans
- Backed a Genocide
Wait, where does this not apply to Republicans?
Who said it doesn’t?
You kinda implied it by titling it “Democrats:”
The list did. You’re appending to a list.
That’s fair. I updated it to say both. I phrased it that way in response to ChonkyOwlBear’s implication that the Democrats were the good guys
Whataboutism
flawed argument, this is the real world and you do have to compare options.
Making an imaginary secret third option to win the fight is reserved for kids in the playground
Spoken like a true neoliberal. Pragmatic genocide.
blah blah blah very cultured very much words
do you want a standing ovation for eating a dictionary for breakfast or do you intend to face reality
How bad is your fucking vocabulary if words like “pragmatic” are too fancy for you.
Jesus, I knew fascists were anti-intectual, but getting angry at words the average middle schooler would know is a new level.
You’ve certainly whitewashed Dems quite a lot. You’re fundamentally not wrong though. As bad as the Dems are, and they are very bad, MAGA is undeniably worse. If we had some other electoral system, we could safely explore other options. But we don’t. We have FPTP, which makes it a binary choice between bad and worse.
And worse is just so, so much worse. That doesn’t make bad good, but it’s still a binary choice. You’d have to be evil or stupid to try to muddy the waters so that bad seems close enough to worse that people don’t feel the urgency of choosing bad to prevent worse.
The lesser evil choice is whichever hastens the collapse of your monstrous, genocidal empire
Removed by mod
You’re ok with genocide
Dems can be convinced to try other election systems besides FPTP because they fundamentally believe in democracy. From my perspective, fixing things without violence is still an option with Dems. It isn’t with Republicans.
because they fundamentally believe in democracy.
Westerners will go on and on about how North Koreans are brainwashed to worship their leaders, then say shit like this.
fixing things without violence
Apparently doing the modern holocaust doesn’t’ count as “violence” to white supremacist BlueMAGA fascists.
I’m hoping Musk gets some momentum with his third party. Either it splits the Republican vote and slows down this freefall into fascism, or he dumps tons of resources into promoting some variety of RCV. Either way, that’s a net benefit in my eyes.
Either you’re stupid or you’re lying.
Where’s the lie?
Literally fucking half of the shit you attribute to democrats.
Stop racism in policing.
Start here. This is a fucking lie and you’re practically a nazi for whitewashing them
Its not a lie. The legal progress towards this has come from Democrats. Yeah, it’s not enough and it’s been too long coming. Still, look at which states passed laws on chokeholds and which states passed laws allowing people to run over protesters, then tell me there is no difference in the parties.
You’re too easily impressed with the most superficial bullshit possible. The difference you highlighted is purely symbolic on both sides. As if cops are restrained by the law in the first place. Both parties have the exact same policy on policing and your ‘good guys’ are almost exclusively the ones in charge of the cities that actually run those police departments. All they do is give them more funding. And to confound people like you they engage in ‘liberal box checking’ where they ‘do something’ that changes absolutely nothing structurally. And then you turn around and defend these murderers like they’re the good guys. You’re a boob.
Not allowing choke holds isn’t superficial. Body cams aren’t superficial. They cut down on police use of force and citizen complaints. They also cost money. Better trained police costs money. Sending out social workers with police on domestic calls costs money ,and makes a huge difference in the quality of policing.
The only substantial reduction in policing cost is cutting back on the drug war and most left leaning states are doing that. (Reducing numbers of police would do it but most states have similar per capita number of police as Europe).
There is no doubt we have a long way to go on police reform, but to say there has been no progress simply isn’t true.
I’m sorry but you’re extremely too credulous and unthinking.
I already explained why and how bans on chokeholds are superficial. Are your senses so dull that you didn’t notice or are you being deliberately dishonest and lazy by not addressing it?
Body cams are even more glaring an example. It’s extremely fucking common knowledge that they turn them off whenever they want. Do you think you’re being strategic by ignoring that fact? Because the effect in reality is it makes you sound like an idiot. Your entire premise is undermined.
You just straight up have no idea what’s happening in the world around you.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/warrior-cop-class-dave-grossman-killology.html
“More training costs money”
Well, Democrats are the less evil choice, but all this is peanuts compared to EU social standard, I see here in Spain often US tourists which thinks they are in the future, IN SPAIN, with the rights, services and the freedom people has. Even with the US Democrates, it’s compared like the EU fifty years ago.
The EU and the Democrats are both supporting the modern holocaust, neither of them are in a position to talk about “social standards.”
Don’t confuse the statement with the capability to realize it. In the same moment when Netanyahu travel to the EU, in the same moment he will get arrested, but the EU can’t invade Israel to capture him, less without the support from the US. But the change is on the way.
In the same moment when Netanyahu travel to the EU, in the same moment he will get arrested
No. Please don’t make claims about things you don’t know about. It makes it sound like you’re lying deliberately.
But the change is on the way.
Maybe in your imaginary dream land that I assume you were referring to with your comment about the EU arresting Netanyahu, not in the real world though. Please try and remember we are talking about the real world.
Certainly not all EU members will arrest him, but the most will. The ICC statement is clear, the problem for some countries is the USA and beeing a NATO member (sadly) at the same time Israel is supported by the USA. This is because some countries are still hesitant, not for other reasons. The real world is this, and because more and more countries want to turn the EU sovereign respect the US. Trumps BBB and Tariffs for the EU, probably will accelerate this process in August 1, in the manner of selfdefense.
The International Criminal Court’s arrest warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu remain valid and binding on all EU member states after judges rejected Israel’s appeal to withdraw them on July 16, 2025[1][2].
EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell emphasized that implementing the warrants “is not optional” for EU states[3]. However, European countries are divided on enforcement:
Countries confirming they would arrest Netanyahu:
- Netherlands: “If he comes to Dutch soil, he will be arrested,” said Foreign Minister Caspar Veldkamp[4]
- Ireland: Prime Minister Simon Harris stated Netanyahu would “absolutely” be arrested[5]
- Spain: The Foreign Ministry confirmed Spain “will comply with its commitments”[5:1]
- Belgium: Initially said it would arrest Netanyahu but later Premier Bart De Wever stated “practical considerations prevail over ethical considerations” and doubted any European country would make the arrest[6]
Countries refusing or hesitant:
- Hungary: Prime Minister Viktor Orbán called the warrants “shameful” and invited Netanyahu with guarantees against arrest[7]
- Germany: Government spokesperson said it’s “hard to imagine arrests could be made”[1:1]
- France: Claims Netanyahu has “immunities” from prosecution[8]
- Italy: Foreign Minister Tajani called Netanyahu’s arrest “unfeasible”[9]
The warrants accuse Netanyahu of war crimes and crimes against humanity, including using starvation as a method of warfare in Gaza between October 2023 and May 2024[10]. While all 27 EU states are legally obligated to enforce ICC warrants, political considerations have created a rift in their response[3:1].
Politico - Netanyahu arrest warrant: Where can he still go in Europe? ↩︎ ↩︎
Straits Times - ICC judges reject Israel’s request to withdraw Netanyahu arrest warrant ↩︎
EurActiv - ICC arrest warrant for Netanyahu ‘binding’ on member states ↩︎ ↩︎
Channel 4 - Netanyahu arrest warrant: Europe split over ICC ruling ↩︎
Newsweek - Netanyahu Arrest Warrant: Full List of Countries That Will Comply with ICC ↩︎ ↩︎
Sweden Herald - Netanyahu Heads to EU Despite ICC Arrest Warrant ↩︎
Washington Examiner - EU says arresting Netanyahu ‘not optional’ as members waiver on warrant ↩︎
i24 News - ICC Upholds Arrest Warrants Against Benjamin Netanyahu & Yoav Gallant ↩︎
Al Jazeera - ICC prosecutor warned to drop Netanyahu case or be ‘destroyed’ ↩︎
Those memes are just contributing to the issue of young people skipping the elections, and then complaining about our leaders being stupid
Well, then maybe the Democrats should fix that, by putting out candidates that young people actually want to vote for.
There are too little young voters to make it a viable strategy for either side
Based on that logic, it sounds like there are too few young voters to worry about memes stopping them from voting.
No, even the US has more parties than only those two. In Spain we also had a two party system a lot of years ago, but this changed when the people begone to vote also for other parties than those two, with this we have now several different parties, that makes that there have to create aliances to obtain the mayority do be able to govern, so corresponding more on the reallity of the needs of the people, out of this black and white scheme (or better bright and dark grey). In the US is needed that also enter left wing parties, which represent the basic rights of the people, which currently don’t exist, because they are “anti-american communists”, this is the mantra with which they create the fear in the people to vote it.
Exactly! The fascists want people to think there’s no good choice. Apathy helps them take control.
I’m sure repeatedly telling people they need to shut up and never criticize The Party will really reduce apathy.
Criticize all you want. Just recognize there is a difference between a less than ideal party and literal Nazis
Voters: “Please stop bombing children”, “Please stop backing a genocide”, “Please stop handing out our taxes to your rich friends”, “Please stop making healthcare the number one reason for bankruptcy”, “Please stop sending people to torture prisons”, “Please make minimum wage a livable wage”
“…less than ideal party…”
I think you might have a warped view of what “less than ideal” means
I hate it but, until March or April (depending on the poll) a majority of the country still supported Israel.
Democrats regularly raise taxes on the rich and Republicans regularly raise them. Democrats regularly push for prison reform and things like cashless bail. Republicans regularly push for harsher sentencing and reductions in per-prisoner spending. Compare a map of state minimum wages to their political alignment.
If you want Democrats to act on these things more, we have to get obstructionist Republicans out of office.
less than ideal party
Genocide apologist
I hate it but it’s happening no matter who is in power. Best we can do is a party who isn’t going to throw immigrants in concentration camps.
If you think that committing a modern holocaust is “less than ideal” you belong in a concentration camp.
both can be true at the same time.
Could be, but isn’t.
I wouldnt say a party of genocide supporters who love to kick progressives in the face and dont seem to give 2 shites what their voters want and need, and who have a wildly eroding base and 28% approval doesnt qualify as a:
good choice
But I guess if thats what you think I’m not going to change your mind.
There’s only two choices under the current system and the other one is kidnapping people to put in concentration camps right now. The only chance to change the current system without open armed conflict is the Democrats.
I think its time to start looking past democrats as possible agents of change. Justice delayed is justice denied, and the AIPAC centrists are firmly in control and not about to change anything. Rallying behind them just guarantees more loss, at the cost of enabling their corruption. Their base has already left to the point that they cant win anything. They have a 28% approval rating.
-
And that stuff about abortion shouldn’t even be there after they didn’t do anything for it.
the rights were appealed under genocide Joe
… By the Supreme Court Trump packed?
After the dems didn’t codify it in law even though they had control
I couldn’t agree more. Also:
Except MAGA is not neoliberalism unless we think tariffs are now “free trade”. I get the point that neither party will wield power against capitalism, but they still use their power differently.
but they still use their power differently.
Well…Do they though? On that pesky genocide (sorry I forgot–lets not call it ‘genocide’, right, that makes dems queasy-- how about we just say some people seem to have dropped dead), Bidens pretend “push back” and “negotiations” and “red lines” and “plans to build a dock to get food in and then hand it to the Israelis just like every single other land border crossing” all show that the dem centrists are simply mercenaries paid by zionists. mercenaries who take the time to put up some theatre for their evil so people dont have to acknowledge it, but the exact same outcomes happen either way. Most of the deaths and most of the building demolitions happened under Biden. When you and I start trying to parse if it was slightly faster under Trump, aren’t we missing the point?
We lost Roe under Biden, who famously never supported a womans right to choose until right before he got tapped to be VP. Strange coincidence?
Appointing Merrick Garland as AG and then pretending to be powerless while Garland proceeded to lean right and sit on his hands for 4 entire years is another example. As is cracking down on free speech. And what did Biden do in the wake of all the police murders that the defund and reallocate movement brought to his door? He said explicitly that he didnt agree with the massive movement on the left, and shut it down, actually increasing police funding as an extra “eff you” to the dem voters. Same as a republican would. Wheres this imagined difference?
And Biden famously told rooms full of rich donors at the end of Trumps term that “nothing would fundamentally change” (from Trump’s first term) under him. This emncapsulates this whole discussion perfectly. Biden swearing to the rich that nothing will change, while pretending to run on change.
This is the same Biden who shut down a rail strike, and then slowly over time negotiated a tiny fraction of what the strikers wanted, and then called it a victory on their behalf-- and then had the effing gall to walk a picket line for a photo op so his surrogates could trumpet how union-friendly he was. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/01/joe-biden-rail-strike-labor-unions
Same Biden who during his term bragged about being harder on immigration than Trump ever had been-- and wore it like a badge of honor that he’d “closed the southern border”. https://jacobin.com/2024/06/biden-asylum-executive-order-border
Today centrist dems wont even admit there was ever any problem. So I guess you’d say we should change nothing and ignore the wildly eroding support and the poll numbers showing the democratic party has just 28% favorability?
So I guess you’d say we should change nothing and ignore the wildly eroding support and the poll numbers showing the democratic party has just 28% favorability?
My brother in Christ, you’re not talking to a liberal here.
Hrm I see you are correct. My bad, sorry.
Yeah you’re right, calling it “neoliberalism” at this point is questionable. They’re also blocking renewable energy businesses.
The uni-party trash system.
At least Democrats want to slowly slide us into a monarchy. MAGA wants it NOW!
What a country…
*3rd world shithole country
That’s an insult to all 3rd world shithole countries. At least they’re trying.
do you want cancer to kill you now or do chemo and live for another 20 years?
You don’t have to agree with everything, but there’s a lot of truth in this diagram. Both are serving AIPAC, both don’t care about woking class, both want to collapse the US with infinite military spending,…
The fact that there are so many dislikes proves how propagandized the average American is. “How dare you call both sides the same” Well, they ojectively are pretty much the same with few exceptions.
Especially for non-Usian people, doubly especially for those on the working end of US “diplomacy” - bombs, coups and sanctions come regardless of which US administration, there is literally no difference whatsoever.
I’m no fan of the democrats, but they don’t want to systematically exterminate people like me.
but they don’t want to systematically exterminate people like me.
Lol, typical american liberal “systemic extermination is fine so long as it’s not being done to MEEEE”
I wish the nice lady who brought slave markets to Libya hadn’t been shunned by MISOGYNISTS, I could be sipping mimosas right now smh
You must be very privileged or very ignorant to see things this way.
The Democratic Party is somewhat conservative and stand firmly behind capitalism. But they aren’t fascists. Not at all.Uhhhhh yes they are lmao. They just have an insignificantly smaller out group. They consider the rest of the world fair game for death camps, torture, starvation, and everything else Republicans do, and they even agree with most of their most fascist shit (like the children in cages and the Patriot Act, which were not only not stopped but expanded with Dems at the helm).
They just think gay people and people of color are a sizeable demographic, but not sizeable enough to stop the violence against them, just kind of pretend they’re the only allies.
They keep doing that because idiots keep buying it. I don’t think Mussolini would have been much better if he copped black slang for his propaganda material and was ok with gay people in the military.
Yeah they’re the same except one of them wants to kill me and my friends
Both of them want to kill you and your friends. One is just stupid/racist enough that they’re willing to do away with your labor power ASAP while the other would rather let their billionaire masters squeeze every penny out of you in debt peonage for the rest of your life (hopefully less than 65 years).
However, I’m far less interested in what they want to do to other gringos than the fact that they’ve been workshopping even worse than this brutality on the rest of us for centuries and y’all were okay with it. You’d continue to be okay with it if there wasn’t a dang Cheeto in the white house or whatever the fuck.
Let me rephrase: one of them is willing to let me and my friends die because they’re more interested in making money than providing for our needs, and one of them wants to shoot us in the fucking heads for being queer. But yeah the ones who hate us for being queer aren’t actually worse than the ones who simply don’t care about us
They also want to shoot you in the head for not being white. But yeah, no worse than the ones who simply don’t care about your wellbeing. In fact, the latter deserves even more of your ire, for some reason
me and my friends die
“Sure, they may be committing a modern Holocaust, but what about MEEEEEEE”
Western liberals are the most self centred people alive, you literally don’t see foreigners as real people.
Meeeeee, and also all of the other non-cishets, non-whites, and non-men
You’re right though, western liberals are the worst. I’m going to take your advice and become a western conservative, and will be doing my best to actively hurt people, because you think it’s better when American women and gays and nonwhites die than when they don’t
all of the other
Once again, we are reminded that western liberals literally don’t conceptualise foreigners as real people.
I’m going to take your advice and become a western conservative
By all means, the difference is entirely performative; conservatives are just more honest about it.
Nice ahistorical analogy, but the democrats have proven very capable of literally killing people abroad for the crime of being brown and desiring autonomy, as well as turning a blind eye when cops and the national security apparatus murder people on a whim at home. So forgive me for not seeing them as polar opposites.
One willing to do the bad thing while the other not willing to do anything about it (and resistant towards any change) is just voting between the Uvalde school shooter and the uvalde cops that prevented parents from going in and saving their children.
One side supports a criminal Nazi apologist who tried to overthrow our Democracy and hasn’t given up yet. The other side brings a knife to the gun fight.
They’re not even remotely the same. 40 years ago that may have been closer to true.
The DNC isn’t fighting for workers. They are bringing a gun to the gunfight, they just aren’t interested in using it against the GOP, as ultimately both serve capital. The US has never been a democracy for the people.
oh god i agree with cowbee wholeheartedly in a thread of discourse…
oh god oh fuck oh shit i can feel it happening… is it warm in here?
Я чувствую, как марксизм-ленинизм просачивается в мой мозг!!! make it stop….
Теперь я чувствую себя белым и пушистым… как коммунистический медведь.
—-
anyway joking aside appreciate lemmy collectively telling neolibs to shut the fuck up bc while plenty of things .ml says piss me off, they don’t piss me off nearly as much as seeing americans who haven’t ripped the bandaid off yet.
Hey, seems like a good enough reason to start looking into Marxist-Leninist theory as any! 😉
Democrats seek to regulate said capital. The Overton window is too far right to have much effect.
Serving capital does not mean we’re not a Democracy. Attempting a coup of the government and disinformation does, however.
They only seek to regulate capital as much as their megacorp and billionaire donors wish. The “Overton Window” has nothing to do with it.
Further, if both parties serve capital, then we have democracy for capital, not for the people.
Not much argument there, but the Overton window has everything to do with it. How do you think other Democrat socialist countries got where they were? At some point they were all pretty much in our boat. I haven’t lost hope yet.
There are no “democratic socialist” countries. Democratic Socialism is a descriptor for reformist socialism, the closest we got was Salvador Allende in Chile. Socialism isn’t just “social programs,” socialism refers to a mode of production where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, ie the large firms and key industries. The Nordic countries are Social Democracies, welfare capitalism essentially.
The Nordic Countries have the large safety nets they do largely due to proximity with the USSR, who was the first to dramatically expand their safety nets. Combined with millitant labor organizing, these concessions in other countries forced the bourgeoisie’s hand. The problem is that these social safety nets in the global north are funded through imperialism, vast extraction from the global south.
The Overton Window has nothing to do with it. The system is dominated by capitalists, the only way to get even a fraction of what the workers want is through millitant organizing and running our own parties like PSL, the only way to actually get socialism is through revolution.
To most, Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy mean the same thing. Since actual Socialism is usually so irrelevant it requires no clarification. Since you’re an actual socialist I’m gonna doubt we have any constructive dialogue from here on out.
But for the record I don’t believe violent revolution is a winning strategy. It’s a failed experiment that killed millions and it won’t work this time either. Neither is sitting back and hoping things work out, so I can’t dock you.
No they want to appear to regulate capital. Most of the time they don’t actually want to regulate it. Yes they won’t be as overt as to do the massive wealth transfers they the republicans do . But they will. Who was president in 08 ? Who continued to dump money into our military contracts despite running as anti war?
Like yeah the parties are different domestically but foreign policy wise the outcomes are usually the same.
Most right wing policies done by Democrats are necessary because of the electoral college. There is resistance from the right, and Democrats working within the unfair rules need to appease these swing state voters through compromise. Those compromises are ugly and unfair. It’s not usually because they want to appease billionaires. But definitely there is corruption on both sides. Just 10x as much on the right.
How did you quantity that 10x times?
My best naïve estimate puts Democrats at 1.44-1.98x as corrupt.
😂 I mean for one, the entire presidential election was purchased by a few rich people who used disinformation tactics. Then taxes for the rich were eradicated at the expense of everyone else. That’s the exact opposite of the Democrat’s political ideology. I should say 1000x. I’ll call it “orders of magnitude” instead.
So where did you get 1.98?
these swing state voters through compromise. Those compromises are ugly and unfair.
Unless that compromise is “don’t commit genocide”, then they’ll happily abaondon the swing-state voters.
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One side supports a criminal Nazi apologist who tried to overthrow our Democracy and hasn’t given up yet.
And the other side commits genocide. It also overthrows other people’s democracy, but you don’t consider foreigners human.
https://www.inss.org.il/publication/democrats/
Most Democrats express greater sympathy for Palestinians. That’s not what I would call “committing genocide”. What I see is Democrat officials expressing support, but powerless against Republicans who do not. That’s not supporting genocide. We’re fighting, but losing.
Most Democrats express greater sympathy for Palestinians. That’s not what I would call “committing genocide”.
Committing genocide is committing genocide. What the fuck is wrong with you?
What I see is Democrat officials expressing support, but powerless against Republicans who do not.
Then you had your eyes closed for all of 2024
That’s not supporting genocide. We’re fighting, but losing.
Genocide denier
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Ok, I’ll return your argument strategy exactly as you stated it: [Some thing that in no way resembles anything I said]
You people really cannot behave in good faith, can you?
If not, you are a genocide denier and had your eyes closed for all of 2025. What the fuck is wrong with you? You shameful asshole. People are dying and you don’t even give a fuck. You have nothing more to say that I care about until you personally feed an affected person. Hypocrite."
Incoherent. But I guess I shouldn’t expect more from a genocide apologist fuck like you.
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One side supports a criminal Nazi apologist who tried to overthrow our Democracy and hasn’t given up yet
Compare the last 6 months to the previous 4 years. You know they’re not.
People with the same goals can disagree on minor implementation details.
We’re talking concentration camp vs no concentration camp here. Child rapist vs no child rapist. International cooperation vs tariff chaos.
All of those things existed under the Democrats too.
yes of course history will remember Biden as a historic, effective, deeply moral president who did the right thing when times were rough, and left behind a lasting legacy of peace and progress.
Who are you crediting with ‘no concentration camp’ here? The party that performatively cried outside of one and then ignored it when they were in power?
Are you SERIOUSLY pretending the democrats aren’t complicit in ‘child rapist’??
Biden couldn’t stop touching and kissing clearly uncomfortable, random kids in front of hundreds of cameras. He’s been accused of rape. Stop pretending we all live in your Marvel movie concept of the world.
Honestly not much changed for me. I wasnt interested in travelling to the US. I am not interested in buying or selling product in the US.
However i wake up every morning to yet another stream of people being brutally murdered by the US or with US support through US allies. My country keeps hosting a drone relay station integral to US murder programs in the Middle East and everyone in politics pretends this to be okay and the US soldiers stationed here to be totally for our safety and as not being quasi occupied and serving as a logistics hub for invasions, mass murder and genocide.
Another issue i care about is child rapists not getting away with their crimes. Turns out the US administrations of two Republicans and two Democrats have been covering up a child rapist ring involving thousands of victims and probably as many perpetraitors, with a former D and a current R president among the rapists.
My country is quasi occupied by a natiom of child rapists and there is reason to believe they rape here too, as the US soldiers are knowm for that.
Seriously, this is the kind of bullshit that swings so far left it circles back to right.
The goal of this administration is to remove existing government institutions and replace them with far right traditionalist based institutions that the creator of the Heritage Foundation (Paul Weyrich) began writing about ~1999.
I think that we have to look at a whole series of possibilities for bypassing the institutions that are controlled by the enemy. If we expend our energies on fighting on the “turf” they already control, we will probably not accomplish what we hope, and we may spend ourselves to the point of exhaustion. The promising thing about a strategy of separation is that it has more to do with who we are, and what we become, than it does with what the other side is doing and what we are going to do about it.
The people that created the term “cultural marxism,” want you to believe this stupid both sides are essentially the same shit so you’re less resistant to them dismantling the parts of government that people had to fight very hard for. Voters rights, civil rights, and civil liberties have always been under attack by this same group of people. Now you’ve got this dumbass propaganda telling people that since those rights have always been under attack, you might as well just assume it won’t matter if they cease to exist.
You need help.
Apologies for the facts and documented history you don’t want to hear 🤷♀️
I know Project 2025 hasn’t been brought up nonstop over the last year or anything, but if you can somehow imagine a publicly available document laying all this shit out point by point, it might help you understand where I’m coming from.
“Everyone who is an adult who realizes there is no unicorn party is completely propagandized. I am le very smart.”
Yep, you’re a reddit refugee alright.
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Change my mind
Capitalism is a tool to maximize profit. Whoever thought it was a good idea to let capitalism have influence on laws so that they can maximize its profit was a big fool.
What do you expect? Capitalism, a tool, has by definition no morale. Let it decide politics to increase profit and you end up with that kind of shit society we have today.
Don’t blame the hammer, when you hit your thumb. Also, don’t let the hammer decide where to make the biggest dent.
Can we please start again focusing on the people? Without people there is no society, and there is no market to increase profits.
Start using capitalism and free markets like a tool. Want more renewable and clean energy? Make rules and see the magic of capitalism in making the best out of it.
Instead we let capitalism decide what should be done next and suffer the consequences. It’s as easy as that.
Unfortunately capitalism not only create the rules, they also decide what is news and influence societies views. And that’s why OPs picture is as it is.
Fuck socialism, am I right guys?!
I agree with this 100%.
Capitalism is exceptional at finding ways to provide value when there is a new market. The issue comes when capital gets accumulated and concentrated in the hands of a few.
We’ve seen it dozens of times throughout history where a healthy merchant class with lots of opportunity for upwards mobility ends up in an oligarchy as the market becomes saturated then monopolies, duopolies, and cabals (guilds) form.
The state needs to use the “P” and “L” in PESTEL forces (Political, Economical, Social, Technological, Environmental, Legal) that businesses (from single to large multinational) to identify new markets that need investment.
An examples would be new clean renewable electricity and one way of giving preferrence to this green energy by minimally taxing profts on this energy sold in the national market or international market via grid-interconnect networks (“Gridternets” if you will) with a clear plan to increase the tax to a normalised amount slowly overtime as the green share of the market approaches 100%.
It also has to be used to more aggressively dissuade markets that are more harmful than good now. An example of this is dirty power.
Coal, Oil, and Gas have done wonders for increasing people’s quality of life because they unlocked a new energy density previously unattainable. Now we have alternatives that are by every metric better; more efficient and less polluting.
Therefore, these industries need to be taxed out of existence by using a logarithmic energy carbon tax that keeps increasing year on year. Corruption needs to be rooted out like a weed as much as possible using a politically independent organ of the state to keep it healthy.
Then there’s markets that are stagnant in some state of capture: crumbling infrastructure, food retailer hypermarkets, etc. Windfall suprise taxes on incumbents and grants / zero interest loans for new competitors would reignight competition in those markets and the additional tax revenue can be used to fix the crumbling infrastructure these markets rely on.
And finally, I’d like to see a strong preference for co-operatives where ownership in a free market is much more evenly distributed by making them the least taxed commercial entities with businesses that have a higher concentration of ownership are taxed more through some sort of profit tax multiplier.
It’s much harder for a business to act in a pure profit motive to the detriment of society if the employees have more ownership as it allows morality to be expressed through political power within this business. These employees also then benefit from the profit share as well which gives stability and upward mobility in exchange for their labour.
There, that’s three proposals that could help towards decarbonisation, investing in underfunded infrastructure, and reducing inequality.
I am not a policy expert and there’s bound to be problems with each of those proposals that I haven’t thought of, but we have so much more to gain by working cooperatively together to build a system that aims to better humanity as a whole by using the best tools correctly and safety.
Until we reach an energy density which unlocks technology that enables things like a resourceless economy (a la Star Trek luxury space communism), we’re stuck with the tools of money and capital as the ways to transfer value.
I personally can’t wait for the day where “reputation” rather than money becomes the currency of society, I am willing to work with the tools we have right now to build that future, and I have faith that others are willing to build it with me.
Yes, definitely, but I think you mean an exponential energy tax law, not a logarithmic one.
Yes, correct I do. Engineer brain working in dBs constantly.
I dunno, no Democrat ever threatened to make my country the 51st state since the 19th century…
DNC is a huge problem with America as was Biden/Garland. They need/needed Trump to not fall out of a window, or be in military jail, in order for the most warmongering neocon DNC candidates to ensure warmongering. After Oct 7th, DNC’s Israel first “job is to gaslight the left into supporting Israel”, meant ensuring Trump’s win, and today, have their elected Zionist supremacists, repeat attacks of communism on Mamdani.
On global warming, forcing a proxy war on Russia, not only enriches domestic oil companies to fund climate denial. pushing global diesel (home heating fuel same fraction) refining capacity to limit, with massive emissions from war, it also means no cooperation with Russia possible on global warming. It is simply impossible to prioritize human sustainability, if voters are made to support war, while struggling with the economic collapse directly accelerated by it, not to mention cultural divisiveness issues (not DNC/Biden fault).
The US needs either a military coup, or candidates/party that will remove citizenship and assets of Zionist oligarchy influencing US rulership. If money is speech, then money is terrorism.
Just a reminder that the function of the Democratic party is to continually reduce expectations so that this diagram seems reasonable.
To be fair, you have to credit Democrats with Obamacare which was really a way to improve the lives of poorer people
Obamacare is responsible for finding the masses in my breasts right now so I like it. I’d like it more if just everyone could go to the doctor and not have to ask, like I do, “is it covered by my insurance”
And the 2000s bank bailouts.
Also, cash for clunkers?
I credit Dems with making Mitt Romney’s healthcare plan worse, by removing the public option - the thing that would have actually improved the lives of poorer people. Instead, we simply shoveled some 30mil Americans right into the pockets of predatory insurance companies.
The only silver lining from that legislation was preventing them from denying care due to pre-existing conditions, and that point has been an all out battleground ever since.
One half-baked concession to the poor doesn’t imply their party platform is about improving the lives of poor people.
You mean Romney care without the public option. Obamacare is more conservative than the actual republican plan…
Which is the Republicans’ fault, they’re the ones that forced the public option out of the bill.
Can you not see that the people who are disagreeing with you are merely suggesting that it is not as black and white as it being the democrats fault, or the republicans fault, that perhaps there’s more to it than which corporate/aipac/billionaire donor football team you like?
The donor class owns both teams by the way.
It’s the corporate dems and the corporate republicans who are holding back progress… because of legal bribery - campaign donations….
By your logic, democrats blocked 100% of Biden’s agenda while he was in office.
Biden literally accomplished nothing during his administration, and even the dumb stuff that was passed has been clawed back already.
It’s not fair to say that he accomplished nothing! Bombing kids, backing a genocide, taking money from the working-class and poor, and giving it to his rich friends, helping to build out the border wall, increasing funding for the police and surveillance state…
All that work aint easy.
Lol
I don’t like football
Good for you I guess?
Eh, t’s neutral for me I’d say, but thanks
Man Obamacare really did a lot to help the Libyans getting bombed by NATO forces.
Obamacare was always a rhetorical device to prove how unserious the GOP is at governing.
We may have got here eventually anyway, but things are a lot worse for Americans right now because of Trump’s Republicans. Let’s not lose sight of that when complaining about the shit they have in common.
There’s also nobody who might emerge out of the right who would bring something that will make life for everyone better. Only the Democrats have a chance of doing that and engineering a better system that might eventuallyundermine their own political hegemony. Would they without pressure? Of course not. But the right will never even be pressured to do anything like that intentionally by it’s base, almost by definition basically.
Only the Democrats have a chance of doing that and engineering a better system that might eventuallyundermine their own political hegemony.
No they don’t
But the right will never even be pressured to do anything like that intentionally by it’s base,
The Democrats couldn’t be pressured to stop doing genocide even at the cost of losing the election
I don’t think you’re listening. That’s one of the issues both sides share in common that sucks. Doesn’t change the fact they’re our only hope.
I’m listening, I just think you’re wrong.
And I brought up that issue specific to show that the Democrats also “will never even be pressured to do anything like that intentionally by it’s base”
Progressive social change has always occurred under the auspices of the left-most of the two major parties. That’s just how it overwhelmingly is. What’s not to agree with? How do you think progress will happen next time it happens?
The hallmark progressive achievements made in this country, many that still exist today (to varying degrees ofc) were a result of third party sweat, blood and tears. Literally.
I recommend reading about the social/workers rights movements of the early 1900s. The Progressive Party led by Roosevelt, The Bull Moose Party with social reformers like Jane Addams and Florence Kelly, the Socialist Party of Eugene Debs… all of these were most prominent in fighting for and ultimately producing a cluster of social welfare, social insurance reforms, women’s suffrage, workers rights/5 day work week, etc.
It was the dedication, pressure and will to not fall in line trying to change the two-party duopoly from within but to build their own coalitions, their own movements on the outside, and thus the mainstream parties were eventually forced to inscribe the populus demands into legislation.
All that to say, healthy third parties are a good thing. It builds actual pressure on your legislators. Politicians wont work on your behalf when they know you’re voting for them anyway – just line their pockets with money from the bourgeois they actually legislate for. Seeking the change you wish to see via third party can and has produced tremendous gains for the working class.
If your only hope is a party comitting genocide you might as well abandon it and look elsewhere
Where?
PSL, DSA or whoever organizes where you currently are
You can and should support them as they align with your values, but you’ll never get enough votes for them to have any chance of overthrowing the big two. It has to be changed from within, unless you’re prepared to try violence.
Since changing from within is impossible, and voting in a new party is highly unlikely, it seems the revolutionaries were right all along.
Fuck voting, organizing is where its at. I swear if just half the free time as some people on here… (not you specifically)
Listen to yourself. You’re saying the Democrats are our only hope yet they also don’t listen.
Democrats do listen, but only to those with power. Before anything can change for the better we need power for ourselves.
And how will we do that?
Genocide Joe, you’re my only hope
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The thing is that your asking tankies to be pragmatic about policy. They would rather let the Palestinian Genocide continue and works lose more rights than to do anything helpful in the near or medium term. They just aren’t serious about the issues.
Its easy for the .ml types to cry and wait for a perfect policy or candidate. They aren’t going hungry, nor under seige of any kind.
The thing is that your asking tankies to be pragmatic about policy.
This “pragmatism” is how we got here in the first place.
Its easy for the .ml types to cry and wait for a perfect policy or candidate.
We’re not looking for a perfect candidate under bourgeois democracy, because we know it will never happen. Previously:
The US government was never not captured by the bourgeoisie, because the US was born of a bourgeois revolution[1]. The wealthy, white, male, land-owning, largely slave-owning Founding Fathers constructed a bourgeois state with “checks and balances” against the “tyranny of the majority”. It was never meant to represent the majority—the working class—and it never has, despite eventually allowing women and non-whites (at least those not disenfranchised by the carceral system) to vote. BBC: [Princeton & Northwestern] Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
We’re not looking for a perfect candidate under bourgeois democracy, because we know it will never happen. Previously:
In either case you’re not doing shit and you’re not a serious movement. Tankies don’t vote to minimize harm, nor do they vote to expand the progressive wing.
You all are effectively the ratchet democratsyou laughs at because you ultimately won’t show or organize for anything. Tankies aren’t serious people.
Schrodinger’s leftists; simultaneously the reason the Democrats lost the election and the biggest obstacle to progress, but also not a serious movement.
Non.voting is the largest block going back multiple cycles. Trolls like you are concerned but not enough to show up. I’m aware of your trolling, so I won’t entertain you much more
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I fucking hope, but we already seen that at 1st Trump term and after Biden was elected entire EU again got back to licking US boot, including something as unbelivable as fully allowing nordstream sabotage.
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It don’t though, it just rises the price of energy because the gas still flows, even more than before, just from USA, Norway and yes, sill Russia, even more of it, but through middlemen. The sabotage also caused significant ecological catastrophe in the Baltic.
About the sabotage itself you have three versions available:
- Truth, that USA bombed it, possibly with participation of Norway (note above paragraph, curiously the very same countries that gained the most on it, qui bono, eh?)
- USA version, where Ukraine did it, despite lacking means
- Official German/EU version, that is no version, because both above versions means that Germany is either vassal (ver1) or war ally (ver2) of country which attacked Germany in a biggest peacetime sabotage in German history.
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Bullshit. German politics is riddled with the same talking points as the US. Just today i read a german article talking about a “german roe v wade”
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Isn’t Germany pro-genocide across the political spectrum?
In seiner Stellungnahme gegenüber „t-online.de“ führte Reimer weiter aus, dass er Brosius-Gersdorf, deren Wahl vor einer Woche aufgrund mangelnder Unterstützung innerhalb der Unionsfraktion ausgesetzt worden war, als Aktivistin wahrnehme, „die über eine Neuinterpretation des Grundgesetzes ein deutsches ,Roe v. Wade‘ erreichen will“. Darin sehe er einen „Bruch mit der gesamten bisherigen Rechtsprechung des Bundesverfassungsgerichts zu Art. 2 Abs. 2 GG“. Jener Artikel besagt: „Jeder hat das Recht auf Leben und körperliche Unversehrtheit. Die Freiheit der Person ist unverletzlich. In diese Rechte darf nur auf Grund eines Gesetzes eingegriffen werden.“
Republicans just convinced Europe that the USA cannot be trusted anymore
FYI: in the EU we don’t play the “it was Biden vs it was Trump” game. We stop at “it was the US”.
What?
I doubt that US extortion will be reversed in any future DNC election victory. Only antagonism, and resulting colapse of US, which has yet to be manifested, will result in reversal.
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You literally just said that it was because of Republicans that the EU soured on the US and now you’re telling me that in the EU you don’t look at which party is in charge but at the US as a whole. Do you not see how these statements are contradictory?
Which is a good thing
> republicans > hostility to RussiaLet me guess, your preferred form of government is “petty dictator killing people for not following the same exact lifestyle as he wants, but virtue signals to communism”.
One side created secret police and are kidnapping people off of the streets to put into concentration camps. End of fucking discussion.
lmfao Obama vastly expanded the surveillance programs Bush started after 9/11 https://time.com/3909293/edward-snowden-obama-nsa-spying/
You’re an ignoramus and you should be ashamed of yourself. End of fucking discussion.
Building on a police state that was 50% pre-built by The Other Party™ but hey who could have thought that bad guys could ever take advantage of it!
Exactly. When terrorists take over a police station it’s really the police’s fault for existing the first place.
Biden didn’t shut down any of the ICE concentration camps Trump opened the last time he was president.
Also Guantanamo Bay has had bipartisan support since the beginning.
Liberals continue to demonstrate they don’t consider foreigners human
When Trump terminated the USAID, Some very liberal who used to advocate for “Women and children” people came out with how No USAID means the USA will lose leverage,like We know you don’t care but at least don’t promote such disgusting foulplays.
And the other side was in power for 4 years but did nothing to prevent this from happening
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So what you’re saying is that the electorates are completely different? Exactly. Thanks for that.
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I agreed with you about the actual issue but wtf. You do realize the United States has 340 million people and lager that whatever country you likely love in, right? There are many diverse political postions here, but you won’t see them in our duopoly…
Like yeah the Dems played a roll in funding and using the police state. They want itm they love West wing TV style politics where they think they are the good guys and can’t critically consider any positive future and therefore end up being shit libs at best.
The republicans actively want to kill everyone for profit.
The Dems actively support the modern Holocaust.
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