Yeah, both sides are the same. One would have continued benefits for the poor while the other is using ICE as a WMD and protecting pedos. Really identical when you think about it.
Yeah democrats really care about the poor.
And they totally wouldn’t increase the ICE budget, and deportations.
edit: By the way, you might want want to be a little less transparent with vote manipulation. I just banned 3 of your no-content alts.
You’re right. They are both the same. Harris did have her own crypto coin I believe and she was a pedo’s best friend(because of the children) there for a while. I couldn’t believe it when VP Harris pressured colleges to ignore America’s past and pushed all government agencies to remove DEI and to help ensure white supremacy in all federal areas. I think she was about to challenge gay marriage and target all trans rights while alienating all of our NATO and non NATO allies with personal insults and tarrifs. Oh yeah, Harris was huge on tarrifs. I forgot how nothing would be different had blue won. Thank you for reminding me!
“Let me mention a few negligeable differences like crypto and ignore all the blatant similarities which actually matter”
Ok how about the genocide in Ukraine that Trump single handedly lengthened and made far worse by stopping defensive weapons to Ukraine? The largest and most deadly conflict for Russia or Ukraine since WW2 and Trump loves the brutal murderous genocidal maniac in Moscow. 1 million casualties and hundreds of thousands of deaths with the theft of children to Russify the area… genocide.
A genocide is not when Russia kills mostly soldiers. War crimes sure, but not everything is genocide.
Also long range missiles are not “defensive weapons”
She has her own list of atrocities to account for, but most importantly, she’s pro-israel, and pro-genocide.
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The Trump term has literally seen a truce to the genocide in Palestine. This isn’t an endorsement of Trump, he’s a fascist piece of shit, but to those constantly bickering about genocide being worse under Trump, where are you now?!
What truce? There was a cease fire that lasted a couple of days in Gaza. No one actually believes he ended the war. Israel is still happily bombing children over the last few days.
Trump has purposefully made the genocide in Ukraine far worse by holding back defensive weapons for months. How many thousands of Ukrainian civilians needlessly died at the hands of Trump that didn’t need to die? The battle line should be much closer to Russia and immovable but Trump likes Putin so that didn’t happen.
No one actually believes he ended the war
There is no war, there is an ongoing genocide of Palestinians by the settler colony of Israel.
And yes, the genocide very much didn’t end unfortunately, and it won’t end until Isntreal is driven out of the region. But it has been ameliorated. By all accounts, dem supporters constantly were ranting about how “not voting for Kamala worsens the genocide”, and this is, factually, not what we’re seeing.
Trump has purposefully made the genocide in Ukraine far worse
There isn’t genocide in Ukraine, there is an inter-imperialist war going on in Ukraine. Using the label “genocide” to every conflict is very harmful to people like Palestinians who are actively being starved en-masse and kept out of reach of basic medicine, healthcare and even fucking drinking water.
With democrats at the (wheel?). Its the same trolley, the same track and the same people on it.
But they mostly abide by a legal speed limit and in general go much slower.
Sometimes they get to a full stopt and get out to clear some people manually to get back going.
The gop sees this and cries out that these slow speed limits are the problem. Go fast, get there quicker.
Neither party wants to talk seriously about where we’re going.
Neither wants to stop.
Shit none of them talk about where theyre at. The bleeding edge of late stage capitalism.
in general go much slower
Tell that to Palestinians, the truce has been implemented famously not during democrat rule.
The only reason there is a “truce” is cause the Trump regime causes so much chaos they think they can get away with a hypernormalized fake truce.
Also Trump does not care one bit about what happens in reality as long as he believes that people believe him to be successful. Towards BN he is nothing but a useful fool.
Most media channels are happy to stop reporting about this cause it was getting old but the war and famine are going on unchanged.
The only reason there is a “truce” is cause the Trump regime causes so much chaos they think they can get away with a hypernormalized fake truce
So an amelioration of genocide is insufficient to you? Good, it’s insufficient to me too, that’s why I suggest voting against democrats too
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Karl Marx said:
The relationship of the revolutionary workers’ party to the petty-bourgeois democrats is this: it cooperates with them against the party which they aim to overthrow; it opposes them wherever they wish to secure their own position.
What that means in the American system is we vote against liberals in the primaries, and we vote for them against the fascists. America doesn’t have ranked choice voting, but voting socialist in the primaries and left (out of the two candidates presented) in the generals is the closest approximation. This is the Karl Marx approved strategy, as you can see from his speech to the Communist League.
Now let’s talk about this meme. It’s fake news. There was no Alligator Auschwitz under the Democrats. Guantanamo Bay wasn’t a concentration camp for immigrants under the Democrats. I submit that the Democrats are at least 1% better than the Republicans, and that this proves the meme is fake news. And if anyone replies to this comment and says well 1% isn’t good enough, I’m going to accuse you of moving the goalposts, because this meme says colour is the only difference. The meme doesn’t say 1% less people get run over by the trolley, and I think there are at least 1% fewer state caused deaths under the Democrats.
What that means in the American system is we vote against liberals in the primaries, and we vote for them against the fascists.
The democrats are also funding this genocide:
There was no Alligator Auschwitz under the Democrats.
The democrats expanded these immigrant prison camps. Some stats from the Obama era:
- Deported over 3M immigrants during his presidency, 2 Deported over 400k people in 2012 alone. Helped grow ICE, and the US mass immigrant detention system.
- In the present day, ICE (U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement), the police tasked with immigration enforcement, operates over 500 prison camps, holding over 34,000 undocumented people deemed “aliens”, 20,000 of which have no criminal convictions, in the US system of immigration detention. The camps include forced labor (often with contracts from private companies), poor conditions, lack of rights (since the undocumented aren’t considered citizens), and forced deportations, often splitting up families. Detainees are often held for a year without trial, with antiquated court procedures pushing back court dates for months, encouraging many to accept immediate deportation in the hopes of being able to return faster than the court can reach a decision, but forfeiting legal status, in a cruel system of coercion. After the creation of DHS and ICE, the budget for immigration enforcement doubled from $6.2 billion in 2002 to $12.5 billion in 2006 under Obama. 1, 2,3
Guantanamo Bay wasn’t a concentration camp for immigrants under the Democrats.
The democrats didn’t close their torture camp in Cuba either.
If you go to university and do any kind of field that involves essay writing, you’ll learn to use a thesis statement to summarise your argument so people know what you’re arguing for. You’ve provided some evidence, but it’s entirely unclear what your position is in this conversation other than “the democrats do bad things sometimes”. If your entire position is “the democrats do bad things sometimes”, then great job! We’re all very proud of you for proving the democrats do bad things sometimes. Now go do your fucking job developing the Lemmy software, because this software is full of issues and the grownups are talking about important issues that actually have a point.
Now go do your fucking job developing the Lemmy software, because this software is full of issues and the grownups are talking about important issues that actually have a point.
Leaving this comment up to show the titanic levels of entitlement and arrogance from the anti-communist crowd.
Even open source devs only exist to do free labor for them, we’re not people to them.
- Deported over 3M immigrants during his presidency, 2 Deported over 400k people in 2012 alone. Helped grow ICE, and the US mass immigrant detention system.
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¨Between 2009 and 2016, the Barack Obama administration oversaw the deporting of a record 2.4 million undocumented immigrants who had entered the United States, earning him the nickname “Deporter-In-Chief” by Janet Murguía, the president of National Council of La Raza. According to ICE data, about 40% of those deported by ICE in 2015 had no criminal conviction, while a majority of those convicted were guilty of minor charges. Statistics of record deportations were partly due to a change in how deportations were counted that began during the Bush administration and continued under the Obama administration.¨.
Guys you need to understand that Americans are only capable to see what is front of them. If happens in front of them is nasty stuff but if is under the radar? Is alright (Unless is a evil foreign country, they don’t need to see anything to believe they are evil)
Well I voted for it to be green
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You don’t give a shit about anyone but yourself
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Yeah! Let’s all vote mauve! That’s an option right? Teal? Aquamarine? So many choices!
In Poland last election saw 17 parties and 43 independents in sejm, but all of them are neoliberal fash ghouls.
Furthermore: how many different parties are in the EU? How many EU countries are rising GDP expenditure in military to 5%? Democracy under capitalism is an illusion
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They aren’t fascists, yet they’re committing a genocide:
Democrats: against every genocide except the current one.
The world cares about what they do to other nations, not to themselves. Crazy gun policies? Slave labour in prisons? Your problem. Military expansionism, cripling economic sanctions, political inference? Very much our problem. That did’t change.
They just do nothing to stop the fascists when they have power and do everything they can to compromise with them.
If there’s one lesson to be learned this year, it’s that politicians who compromise with fascists are still miles better than just uncompromised fascism.
What’s the actual difference? You end up at the same place with either one.
Says who? Yeah, the Dems are filthy neolibs, but all they really care about is money and influence. They’re rainbow capitalists.
The other is literally based on hate and fear, they might actually care about building a christo-nationalist ethnostate more than money.
They certainly have some goals in common, but even compromise isn’t going to the same place.
This feels like trying to explain to someone that you can have 2 different infinities, and one is larger than the other. Both are bad, but one is clearly worse.
“What’s the difference if you end up at the same place?”
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide. It is reasonable to criticize the people supporting a genocide while at the same time recognizing that the people wanting more genocides are not the same.
The only real difference is that there are consequences for you at home in the US and that’s the only part you actually care about
I don’t live in the US, there are no consequences for me as a result of Trump being president. Significantly more people are being harmed under Trump and I actually give a shit about other people instead of putting some idealized moral high ground above actual human lives.
The difference is that 2 genocides is not the same place as 1 genocide.
How do you find yourself typing something like this and not pause for thought?
What’s worse than genocide?
2 genocides.
I don’t know how to make this any more clear.
politicians who compromise with fascists are still miles better than just uncompromised fascism
the paradox of tolerance, ever heard of it?
Yup. Ever heard of Duverger"s Law?
Great hero of the people: Neville Chamberlain
If you had to choose between Neville Chamberlain and Hitler?
I’d say that’s a ridiculous choice and it’s time to organize with the masses against the system that presented it to us; rather than undermine that effort by treating the system as legitimate and shaming others for not seeing the candidates and their futures the way I did.
Hand me two cups of shit, I still have free will to throw them back in your face. The system can force feed if it wants but you won’t see me voluntarily picking a shit cup and eating shit.
I’d say that’s a ridiculous choice and it’s time to organize with the masses against the system that presented it to us
Agreed
rather than undermine that effort by treating the system as legitimate and shaming others for not seeing the candidates and their futures the way I did.
Nah that’s dumb. I don’t give a shit about “treating the system as legitimate”. The system is what it is, and it will continue to be the system until it isn’t anymore. That’s gonna take more than a handful of people refusing to acknowledge the system’s “legitimacy”.
Hand me two cups of shit, I still have free will to throw them back in your face. The system can force feed if it wants but you won’t see me voluntarily picking a shit cup and eating shit.
It is doing that though. You get the option to vote for which of the two cups they force feed you, and everyone else. We are not presently in a position to throw anything back right now. When we are, I’m all for it. But part of that is choosing the smaller cup of shit while we gather strength.
The point is I’m not going to lend you any legitimacy by picking up the shit and eating it myself, then turning at the people around me and asking why they aren’t eating it yet. I’m going to make it impossible for the shit peddler to hide their willingness and ability to abuse their power. If I’m eating shit either way, why would I do it in a way that makes it apparent to outsiders that I’m choosing to eat shit?
And no, when you scold people for not participating in a system, you are not just not “refusing to acknowledge its legitimacy”. You are promoting it, whether you care to or not. You are promoting the idea that everyone is choosing these options out of complete and true support of complete and unbiased information. This is especially true when people like you misrepresent and refuse to understand the arguments of those who choose to abstain or vote third party.
You are saying, “if you participate in this system, you could change the way things are going; and if you don’t, then you implicitly consent to it”, which is simply not true. Interestingly enough, you know how little power a person has when acting as an individual, which is why you minimize the reach of individuals when it comes to forms of political action other than voting, but you never apply it to the situation of voting where the ruling class has vast numbers of ways to influence people’s behaviors in whatever direction they want.
The change can only come when we have built the ability to move cohesively as a class, or a voting bloc if you will, that can either take power for itself or force our leaders to come to our table if they want our compliance. We can only build this by overcoming the resentment we hold for other members of our class, and putting one foot in front of the other; turning one person at a time towards the inner workings of the machine that the ruling class works so hard to hide. Not by stoking resentment and wasting our energy trying to manipulate an illegitimate system while we wait around for the movement to build itself.
More like choosing between Hindenburg and Hitler.
I don’t give a shit about " bankrupting the US!". It literally prints it’s own money. But I sure as shit do remember Democrats going full fascist and participating in the modern Holocaust.
democrats are no saints.
By which you mean they’re genocidal monsters.
Is committing genocide not a fascist act?
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Fascism provides a specific permission structure for genocide that isn’t present in other systems. That’s not to say genocide didn’t happen before the term was coined, but that the characteristics of fascism; nationalism, racial supremacy, military supremacy, victim complex, out groups, scapegoating, disdain for human rights, etc.; tend to be present anywhere that genocide is present, and genocide doesn’t just happen because some “genocidal regime” found its way into power.
Whether or not you need their permission to make the policy; you need the people’s permission for it to stand, because ultimately you need the people’s voluntary compliance in order to carry it out. Otherwise you undermine your own system and generally incite resistance against it.
God, how much is a sniveling little toad do you have to be to engage in that kind of nit picking semantics about genocide.
I’m sympathetic to your argument, but ultimately they absolutely are fascist. If you doubt me, then to ask a Palestinian. There is very little that the Trump regime is doing that the Democrats weren’t doing less obnoxiously and on a much slower timescale.
We can’t keep accepting the lesser evil indefinitely. When you brush off the serious issues in the Democratic party with language like “no saints” you make it look like that’s exactly what you intend for the country to do. I mean “politicians will be politicians”. That’s not convincing anymore.
If you doubt me, then to ask a Palestinian.
Just to clarify this to others:
There is very little that the Trump regime is doing that the Democrats weren’t doing less obnoxiously and on a much slower timescale.
That part is important. I hear you about “the lesser evil” but if you’re response to resisting a lesser evil results in a faster, accelerated evil then you have contributed to a much greater harm. If you doubt me, ask a Palestinian if they are better off with Democrats not having any power.
If you doubt me, ask a Palestinian if they are better off with Democrats not having any power.
Biden was in power when the genocide started and during most of it. He had the power to stop it and didn’t. So there’s your answer.
So the Genocide hasn’t accelerated under Trump as OP claimed?
To put it differently, if they are the proximate cause of the Trump presidency, then you are the ultimate cause. I throw up my hands at trying to decide which matters more.
That’s the part where I’m sympathetic to your argument. I think anyone not voting for Harris made a mistake. I also think the arguments people like you made for people to vote for Harris were really really bad and that you are enabling the Democrats to continue down a terrible path of failure.
I also think the arguments people like you made for people to vote for Harris were really really bad and that you are enabling the Democrats to continue down a terrible path of failure.
The argument I made for people to vote for Harris was that this is exactly what will happen if Trump wins, and 3 months before an election is not the time to try to get a viable alternative. Harris sucked, her campaign was shit, but the alternative is running the predictable course.
Now is an excellent time to work on a viable alternative, but saying “both are the same” is disingenuous, and is not actually putting an alternative forward.
They’re certainly no worse off.
OP just said that under Trump the genocide is happening faster and you don’t consider that worse off?
Hmm, red makes it go faster so you kill more people faster but they don’t suffer as long but blue gives you better team mates in matches… wait is this competitive trolley slaughter? I wasn’t expecting to need a team I guess I’ll choose blue because they will be carrying.
If you have to vote between a candidate who wants to build 5 concentration camps and another candidate who wants to build one. You vote for the candidate that only wants to build only one concentration camp. Sure, both candidates are really bad, but one is considerably worse.
Therefore, we must still vote for the lesser of two evils. Not voting at all because both sides bad is how democracy dies, especially when democracy itself is under attack right now.
If you have to vote between a candidate who wants to build 5 concentration camps and another candidate who wants to build one. You vote for the candidate that only wants to build only one concentration camp.
Well it’s a good thing that we didn’t have that binary choice then. My ballot had a few options, some of them even opposing concentration camps, so I got to vote against them.
I would vote a third party if it doesn’t just help the right win. If only we had ranked choice voting instead of the electrol college, then we could crub the 2 party system. Unfortunately, in the US, it’s either red team or blue team because until you can change the hearts and minds of millions of people, then it’s always going to be one of them.
If you have to vote between a candidate who wants to build 5 concentration camps and another candidate who wants to build one
So you support China in their liberation of Tibet from feudal serfdom? You support the Soviet Union destroying Nazism despite the excesses made in the gulag years? Or do you only extend this courtesy to capitalist imperialist regimes?
Obviously not. I don’t support building concentration camps in general, and China is a bad example since there’s no opposing party in Chinq. Admittedly, the example I gave was a bit on the extreme side. Regardless, I still disagree that if both sides are bad then they automatically are equalivent and thus voting is pointless as the meme seems to imply.
If Harris had won the 2024 election, do you honestly think she would be mass deporting immigrants without a trial, starting a trade war with China, attempt to cut funding for FEMA, etc? Sure, I’ll give you that she would have been content with the genocide in Gaza and would have been propping up the capitalist status quo. However, is that truly equilvent to what Trump has done in just his first year of his second term?
Your willingness to only engage in lesser-evilism with western genocidal regimes is very telling.
Sadly, western genocide will happen REGARDLESS of who I vote for, yeah. So, what do you propose I do about it other than protest and likely get arrested by ICE in a couple years for it? Attempt to sail aid to the people in Gaza and die along with them? I suppose it would preferable than live in a fascist America, but I have people who need me alive as of now.
If Harris had won the 2024 election, do you honestly think she would be mass deporting immigrants without a trial, starting a trade war with China, attempt to cut funding for FEMA, etc?
Of course, look at her predecessor. Obama massively increased ICE, deportations, and did a pivot to asia.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the senate controlled by the right? Wasn’t it them that pushed for mass deportations?
I suppose you do have a point though, Harris wouldn’t need to be the only one who wins to make an actual difference, even if she would have just upheld the status quo that led to the rise in fascism. Still would have preferred that over what Trump is doing atm
The US is not and has never been a democracy
Oh, you’re right. My mistake. I guess I’ll just stop voting or even protesting then :/
I’ll just tell that to my brother in law who just got released from ICE custody. Like I know this picture is probably true for Gaza, but it isn’t for many of my neighbors and family.
The Democrats have consistently expanded ICE
Wait until you find out Obama deported twice as many immigrants(could be just Mexicans, I can’t remember) as Trump did. Or when you find out Obama dropped more bombs on Muslim countries than Trump. Or that Hillary raised twice as much money from corporations in ‘16 than Trump (same with Harris in’ 24)
It is also true people benefited from Obama’s DACA program. This isn’t a simple trolley problem let alone a single track
It went over your head didn’t it. When he is taking about ice he is talking about erosion of law and norms. Ice has always been a thing but they were not like this.
But go on.
Always is a stretch. Since 2003 during the Patriot Act days.
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Like when Obama drone struck that 16 year old American kid, and when someone in his administration was asked about it, he said that he should’ve had a better father? Yes, he was the son of a known terrorist. But to be fair, Trumps first military raid as president killed his sister, an 8 year old American girl, which Obama refused that mission(maybe twice, don’t quote me on that). Or when Jim Carry had that drawing of a school bus full of children that were bombed and killed, and it was under Obama. Those terrorists?
Obama drone struck that 16 year old American kid, and when someone in his administration was asked about it, he said that he should’ve had a better father
Oh boy the irony
Really takes you back to the outrage when Trump said “We have to take out their families”
“Both sides” idiocy.
The GOP is full of fascists, KKK, white supremacists, religious fundamentalists and anti-science pieces of shit. There is no way to redeem them.
The Democrats are a mixture of economic conservative socialists liberals, and socialists. There is a chance to fix it.
The socialists are the minority because the economic conservatives are corrupt and very well funded by billionaire Democrats and Republicans making them an effective controlled opposition.
There are no socialists in any position of power in the democratic party, you are delusional
People that believe in socialism are socialists. They don’t have to label themselves that way.
Americans are so brainwashed to be afraid of certain labels that they will do everything that the label is but will still claim that the label is bad.
There are no people who believe in socialism in any positions of post in the democratic party.
People that believe in socialism are not given positions of power by the democratic party
I agree.
They have to win elections and they have to fight from within. AOC and the squad have been dealing with that since day one.
That’s my point. People that actually believe in fighting corruption can win elections in the Democratic Party. We need more people around the country to primary the centrists everywhere and work hard for the people.
They have to win elections and they have to fight from within.
Wait everyone! Don’t you see? If we join the Nazis we can change them from within!
All I see is goofy smug trolling and zero solutions. Give us some solutions.
Death to USA.
Here’s one: study insurgencies that managed to hold off and/or beat the US and get ready to apply those tactics because that time is coming. Best get to networking too.
I think It is hard for elections to push any reform. And that is for countries with actual democracy.
Socialism can only be achieved by non democratic methods
We already have socialism in the US. We have a mixed system. The issue is how mixed we want it to be and what specific policies would be the most effective at improving the lives of Americans.
Examples- Social Security, Medicare, Infrastructure, Fire protection, Police, national parks
Yes exactly! Socialism is when government does stuff, anarchism is when it does nothing, fascism is when he does but shouting and communism is when we do it all together holding hands.
Genocide denier
