L meme
I don’t think the Biden or a Harris administration would have started a war with Iran while brazenly sidestepping congress. And, they would at least offer restraint while meeting prior commitments to Israel even as it pushed genocide in Gaza, instead of wholehearted enthusiastic wanton destruction. And they certainly wouldn’t release an AI video of Gaza turned into some kind of horrific twisted kafkaesque graveyard rivera of the Middle East.
Their ICE detention centers would have a standard of care, face scrutiny when they didn’t, and function more like a part of a real immigration control system instead of concentration camps for protesters and brown people. They wouldn’t arrest American citizens for simply protesting, and they certainly wouldn’t have presided over a DHS that executes citizens in the street.
They wouldn’t hawk cheap merch from the White House or tear down the east wing for a self-serving passion project that will never be built because it’s actually just to embezzle from the taxpayers.
And here is perhaps the most important thing: they would make sense when they spoke, and attempt to inspire the things that make Americans good, instead of raving like senile narcissistic lunatics taking out their man-child shortcomings on the world.
The list of things that a real Democratic administration would NOT do compared to this sham regime of an autocratic wannabe dictator is endless, and by the end of this four years you’ll be begging for a return to the status quo. These people are insane and they are running the most power government with the most powerful military on earth. I’m convinced that the “both sides” crowd are simply conservative operatives vying to push blue votes to a third party, or to discourage voting for Democrats at all. Even if they aren’t, it’s the same effect.
Nobody likes the two party system, but this harmful lie that both parties are the same has got to go. They are not the same. One is better, even if it has support Israel to keep the Jewish vote and win elections. We will certainly not be dismantling the two party system or saving Gaza under a republican administration.
Vote red, third party, or abstain at our shared peril.
I don’t think the Biden or a Harris administration would have started a war with Iran while brazenly sidestepping congress.
No they’d probably unbrazenly sidestep congress after Israel manufacturers a reason for them to go to war with something like another 9/11.
This almost reads like a parody tbh. Like, you just want the fascists to be polite and lie to you about the evil shit they’re doing overseas? Come ON. You deserve better. Stop settling for these fucking monsters who support genocide and concentration camps!
Call me when you have an electable leftist candidate. I would certainly vote for them. Until then, I’d like to get these abject MAGA lunatics out of office at the earliest possible convenience please.
What the hell else are we supposed to do? Do you think America will suddenly elect a third party candidate or nominate a real leftist/socialist/anti-genocide candidate after DECADES of failing to do so? At least the requirement of a lie creates some semblance of accountability. The Republican Party now does it openly and gleefully as a matter of course, at an order of magnitude greater in intensity.
I will take the giant douche over the shit sandwich any day man. We don’t have to eat the giant douche! Using the giant douche is manageable over time, but eating a shit sandwich is non-negotiable, I will not do it. It’s so fucking gross. Conservatives are so angry all the time because they eat nothing but shit sandwiches every day on Fox News.
Call me when you have an electable leftist candidate. I would certainly vote for them.
This is exactly the problem. Everyone would! But the Democrats are never going to let a true leftist candidate be the presidential nominee, we saw that in 2016 where they transmuted Bernie Sander’s victory into Hillary Clinton’s defeat.
Stop fucking lying to yourself, stop settling for these douches when we can actually push for real change.
What it takes to start this journey is a willingness to admit that change is possible instead of the endless defeatism.
I get what you’re saying, but we need both of you, and we need you to stop fighting.
We only win enough power to deal with fascism (which will kill millions at this rate) and eventually climate change (which is going to kill billions of people) if we use EVERY strategy available to us. Progressive like electing the best democrats we can, socialist like labour action, and radical like actually fighting an unjust system.
But most importantly we have to stop fighting eachother. People like you need to hold their noses and vote at every election they can for the best candidate they can. People like wuffah will need to tolerate well targeted revolutionary action without publicly criticizing the left.
I broadly agree with you, but I think this kind of debate is actually very productive, I don’t see it as wasteful fighting at all, if I can convince a single person who would have otherwise just voted and take no other action to realize that just voting isn’t enough and to get involved with activism efforts, then all of my efforts in this thread will have been worthwhile. That’s what I’m here to do, building solidarity across the working class, and raising awareness of the issues with electoralism.
Yeah, that’s fair. In leftist spaces we should have healthy debate. We just can’t let that undermine solidarity with our more and less radical members.
they always were, AOC, BERNIES and some other are there as PR, they dont allow them to gain too much influence or too much power.
Yep, the old shit heads keep anybody with radical ideas like “actually do something that helps people” from actually getting into any positions that make them capable of enacting any of those ideas.
I was gonna say young people but Bernie is old as shit and they stood in his way too.
I used to think this way in the '90s. But anyone today who can look at Trump and say he’s the same as the Dems is fucking delusional.
It’s not that they’re identical, or that they share 100% of the same policies, they do have differences, but democrats still supported genocide in Gaza, they supported intervention in Iran, they support US imperialism, and most importantly, they’re bought and owned by the ruling class, so they will never address the underlying material conditions which cause fascism to take root. Trump is terrible, but the democrats made a Trump inevitable. We need real change to prevent fascism in the future. Continuing to vote blue no matter who makes everything worse.
You need to have a foothold somewhere to stop this slide into dictatorship and your only chance to get it is a democratic leadership. You will never see change in the US if you think that it has to be 100 or nothing. It’s not a single issue thing. This whole discussion is absolutely maddening from an outside perspective.
I think a democratic leadership might be able to arrest the slide towards a dictatorship, but the chance of that is quite low - it would require a socialist to win the democratic nomination, and I just don’t see that happening. Anything less than a socialist would inadequately address the underlying material conditions which foment fascism, so there would be four years of neoliberalism or moderate social democracy or whatever - another four years of worsening conditions among the working class - thereafter, the authoritarian dictatorship would come into power.
I think the best way - probably, the only way - to prevent dictatorship would be for the working class to continue organizing and building a people-led direct action movement, like the Black Panther Party did.
Idk when one guy is saying he’ll suspend the constitution and the media is lockstep behind gaslighting everyone about project 2025, I think you should be asking yourself why the billionaire owned media is almost entirely siding with republicans.
I voted 3rd party for 20 years, but I stopped when Trump came to power. It’s not a 10% difference any more. It’s the difference between living in a free and democratic country and living in a fascist dictatorship.
I don’t think OP was suggesting voting third party… America hasn’t had a democracy that works for the majority of the people, for a very long time. The ruling class is not going to let you change the system. Time to think differently.
Same
The US has never been free nor democratic
This is not useful. You again dodged their meaning and avoided engaging. No where is completely free and the road between democracy and fascism is a spectrum. They obviously articulated that this administration is stripping away freedoms.
Personally, I think correcting misinformation is very important, especially when it’s around such an important topic like “is my nation’s government democratically elected” and “am I free”, especially especially when the answer to both is “no”, so yeah, I think it is useful, actually, but of course, you’re welcome to disagree.
I’m not denying that the Trump administration is terrible. I do disagree that “it’s not a 10% difference anymore”, I’d say it’s probably closer to a 5% difference, if even that. The thing is, if you’re privileged enough, it’s very, very hard to really understand that, because you’ve never really been properly exposed to it - for example, through homelessness - so that’s a very difficult (probably impossible) position to convince someone out of. That’s why I didn’t really address it, because there’s not really any productive conversations to be had there.
I genuinely appreciate the thoughtful and respectful feedback, though. Thanks <3
Again, talking past someone. It’s not close, engaging in war without Congress, using the purse without Congress are drastic and alarming departures from the norm.
You’re using sweeping generalizations to vindicate doing nothing.
I don’t see how I’m talking past you, I directly addressed the argument. The differences between the democrats and the republicans are mainly aesthetic and procedural. The whole “no war without a vote in congress” is a great example, they’re not mad that kids are being blown up, they’re mad that the proper procedure to blow up kids was not followed.
I’m not using sweeping generalizations and I’m not doing nothing. I’m encouraging people to get involved with activism and it’s people like you throwing a tantrum about that because I am daring to question your world view.
If you have an argument, then make it. I’m done with the meta-argument.
If Dems were in power now, they’d do fascism too. The economic contradictions have simply increased to a point where fascism is necessary for capitalism to remain profitable for the ultra rich.
I mean maybe, but well never know for sure because Americans voted for the people who outright stated “get in loser we’re going fascist”
What a vacant post… Democrats have a lot of issues, but there is NO reasonable comparison. For one, Kamala wouldn’t unilaterally assassinate other world leaders while starting wars without Congress.
You look like an idiot posting this, now of all times to post. You’re a joke, OP
I assumed it was a joke and that’s why they posted to shitposts, but looking at their comments here no longer sure.
Look, between the “let’s not do anything at all” party and the “wants us, specifically, dead” party, I’ll take the “let’s not do anything at all” party.
You don’t have to 100% like everything a given party is doing to recognize that they’re the least bad option. Sure, they aren’t really actively good, but a vote for them is a vote against the people who want to kill us. (And voting third party is just tossing your vote in the garbage, unfortunately.)
– Frost
I totally understand that, and I completely sympathize with the harm reduction position, but it’s a trap!
If you always vote blue no matter who, then the Democrats have no incentive to ever become more progressive - they already have your vote, they don’t need to appeal to you by advancing progressive policies. On the other hand, they have lots of incentives to shift towards the right, to appeal to their wealthy donors. The result is that the democrats will always be ever so slightly better than the republicans, but both parties shift towards the right and authoritarianism over time.
This means that, in the short term, what seems to be harm reduction, is actually long-term harm maximization. Every election, both parties get worse. This brings us to 2024, where the lesser evil candidate was a pro-genocidal protofascist.
We can’t just keep doing the “don’t blame me, I voted for Kodos” bit or things will never get better, only ever worse.
What in the Jill Stein bullshit is this? You honestly think shit would be just as bad if a dem was in the Whitehouse? Do you need some help off the toilet?
Don’t bother.
There’s like 4 of these idiots on lemmy that parrot these both-sides memes.
One of them posted in nostupidquestions last week asking how americans can be the ones paying tariffs because they’ve never been charged a tariff.
You can’t unscramble an egg. Just block them and move on.
Then why bother commenting?
Blackrock Inc. & Vanguard will continue profiting well after your quokk instance dies, so why bother blocking someone who knows how economies are debts games?having your world view challenged is scary :(
Joe Biden and Kamala Harris both supported the genocide in Gaza. Nancy Pelosi stood and clapped when Trump was making pro-interventionist remarks about Iran at the state of the union address.
I don’t like it either, but we can’t keep denying reality. The two party system needs to go.
Your skirting of my question and the demonstrably untrue claims you’ve made aside, yeah of course there are Dems that absolutely need to GTFO. Bad faith content like this is what keeps people from bothering to vote those people out.
WHAT ABOUT MY WHATABOUTISM!!
we have whole communities demonstrating voting fixes nothing.
Are you this genocidal too?
I have to concede that 99% Hitler is better than 100% Hitler in the short term, that much is true, but if 99% Hitler wins then 100% Hitler can become 110% Hitler. Then 99% Hitler becomes 109% Hitler. That’s Blake’s Lesser Hitler Theory.
We need to LOUDLY and unanimously reject “Vote Blue No Matter Who” narratives, otherwise there is no incentive for the Democrats to ever move towards progressivism.
We also need to work on alternatives to electoralism broadly. I think the Black Panthers are a great example to follow.
Criminy, ‘vote blue’ doesn’t mean vote and then sit at home thinking your work is done. It means voting for the lesser evil and then continuing to leverage the whole of your might to making the system better. It means fight just as hard for justice, just do it while trying to pick a less evil bad guy to have to fight. You want a whole new system? Then fight for it, and vote blue while you’re at it because it’ll be easier to kick those idiots out than the outright fascists.
FYI your arguing with a tankie about “vote blue no matter who” when that fucker’s never even voted.
I’m not a tankie, and I have voted in every election I have ever been eligible to vote in.
Says the legit fascist.
Oh no. Tankies defending libertarians. Everyone run! They going to stand by and do nothing.
but your entire government is fascist…
Sure, I get that, but if you always vote blue no matter who then there is no long-term harm reduction, it actually increases overall harm to have that philosophy. If you aren’t willing to withhold your support and vote third party then there is no incentive for democrats to try and win your vote.
What about short term crisis avoidance?
It’s been a decade since Trump won the presidency and we’re still on the same path
Whew then! Trump avoided jail 22 times!
I love FBI assets! It sure qualified immunized him! /s
What is going on here? Can’t be an LLM because at least the LLMs responses are based somewhat on what they’re responding to. This reads more like a script. I’m getting flashbacks to 2015.
sounds botty as hell too, normal humans dont respond with that much " fake percentage pulled out of the behind" being thrown around.
I’m just autistic :(
What happened in 2015?
That’s around when reddit really started getting astroturfed by right wing and ‘leftist’ boys and r/conspiracy became r/thedonald and r/the Donald was all over the front page all day every day.
2016 actually. i noticed around the time after the election. signifcant bans too, on seemingly implying anything about race or a politician should be “dealt with”
Oh, I created this calisthenics account way after corporate slop AstroTurfed your binary mind. How was /r/Anarchism back then boomer?
It’s someone who was indoctrinated in September / October 2024, was never deprogrammed, and has somehow navigated the interceding 15 months without reading anything?
…and you called me bad faith. My first instinct was to ignore your reply, I should’ve gone with that.
Which of your instincts was to read my reply before responding because I would have gone with that. I don’t see how anything you’ve said is relevant to anything I’ve said.
I was directly responding to the question you pointed out that I “skirted”
You honestly think shit would be just as bad if a dem was in the Whitehouse?
I can understand the confusion but you can just ask for clarification politely instead of calling me an LLM and saying I’m scripted :(
Fuck this shit
If you always vote blue no matter who then there is no long-term harm reduction, it actually increases overall harm to have that philosophy. If you aren’t willing to withhold your support and vote third party then there is no incentive for democrats to try and win your vote.
That’s not at all how voting works. You get a wet noodle or a psychopath. The correct way to deal with the democratic party is to make them more afraid of democrat voters than republican voters.
You don’t get that by “strategic voting” or whatever nerd shit you’re talking about. You get that by doing what the french do and by creating chaos, legitimate fear and headaches for them until they give into demands. You shut down trains and airports until they break, which they will because they’re losers.
You can check my other comments where I advocate for the same stuff that you do! My point is that voting for the Democrats does not genuinely provide long-term harm reduction, it’s a fallacy. I think there are a few options for resolving that problem, and I encourage everyone to take whatever options they feel best.
The democrats are the wet noodles. If you let the psychopaths win none of this stuff works because they’ll happilly kill everyone on earth.
The democrats are also psychopaths, dude, I don’t know what to tell you. Biden & Harris supported genocide, Nancy Pelosi stood and applauded Trump at the state of the union ranting about how we need to invade Iran. They’re not just wet noodles, they are actively fucking evil as fuck, you just aren’t seeing it because Trump is so obviously evil and the Democrats are subtle.
We don’t need to settle for these cryptofascists. We can effect REAL CHANGE if we just stop all the defeatism.
I viewed it the same way, but largely the moment has passed for this rationale to work. When the democrats and republicans were similar enough for it to work, 3rd parties could have done something. But like nowhere in the world has anyone voted themselves out of fascism. 3rd parties are what you do before fascism arrives in full.
I vote for dems now because there’s a chance Trump will attempt to forcibly override the election and if he does it makes our task of dismantling the fascist projects and their media much easier.
The Democrats would not dismantle fascism, they embrace it, and stick a progressive coat of paint on it. Take off the rose-tinted glasses.
If Dems win next election, things will get even worse than they are now. Much, much worse in fact. That’s just the inevitable trajectory capitalism is on. Things would just get worse a bit slower than they would under Trump, at least for the privileged labor aristocracy in the imperial core. The evil empire would simply be run into the ground by slightly more competent genociders. Revolutionary change is the only way out.
But in the meantime as you group up, maybe don’t allow the side making things worse faster get into power? - sincerely, the rest of the world.
We really need to stamp down on this “but both sides suck” bullshit. Yes the establishment Democrats suck, but this defeatist bullshit doesn’t help. I know it would be great to live in a country where there isn’t a two party system l. No hate towards you this subject just got me ramty as fuck.
both sides thing is such a conservative buzzword, are these people cosplaying as “far leftists” as conservatives because they sound exactly the same too.
This isn’t defeatist at all, you just need to recognize that the change you want to see needs to come from an alternative source. Vote Blue No Matter Who is how we ended up with fascism. We need to acknowledge that fact, then we can start to change it.
Have hope, a better future is possible, but it probably won’t come from electoral politics. We need to build an organized labor movement and start taking real action.
The Black Panther Party is a great model for this!
Nah your overall meme is defeatist as fuck. Your saying no matter who you vote for the trolley will run ove everyone. I don’t disagree with the sentiment, but this bullshit dichotomy doesn’t help.
Saying voting won’t work just means you need to try something else. It’s only defeatist if you don’t try anything.
And, absolutely do vote. Vote for the lesser evil. But don’t stop there! Voting alone is not going to fix it.
tankies likely dont vote thats why.
Hey boss, how do we end ICE?
If all we do is vote, the trolley will continue to run over everyone. That isn’t defeatist, it’s a recognition of reality. We need an organized working class to push for change outside of the ballot box. That’s how all of the major change in history happened, through protests, unrest and civil disobedience.
Nobody is proposing defeatism you ignorant fool. We want systems that DO NOT KILL PEOPLE.
You really look at your friends and family and tell them:
Sadly it’s time to die for Rupert Murdoch today, there will likely be more… before it ends, that’s the way it is. Likely be more.
Me in the trolley while everyone is arguing
Are you some new nepo baby we don’t know about? Cause if not you ain’t in the trolley, you on the tracks with the rest of us.
Im not meant to be on the trolley
I’m on the tracks :(
oh the trolley eventually hits a wall and explodes
inshallah
Then maybe vote for the colour that make the trolley slower so you can have more time to prepare and enjoy the company of your neighbours.
Sorry, but I’m not going to ever lend my support to any group that is in favour of genociding my neighbours, and neither should you.
Election season is upon us. These posts aimed at splitting the left have been ramping up.
Democrats are not left. They aren’t even center. Please stop settling for fascists wrapped in a rainbow flag.
Sure thing, comrade. The important thing is to remember not to vote imirite? 🤡
Personally I believe that it’s still worthwhile to vote for whichever candidate you think is best, just recognize that it isn’t enough.
It’s funny that it was leaked that Russia specifically pushed for third party voting and candidates only during a major election when Republicans had a chance of winning
When we demolishing deathcamps, meanwhileonfash?
There’s a left wing party in the fash🇺🇲‽
Let’s pretend Democrats would be acting differently than Trump, he is just louder.
This is pretty true, but remember that it is fixable. Voting in primaries is where you shape your party.
not in its current state, it isnt fixable. and there isnt enough of a large enough 3rd party coalition to hurt either party.
How to vote for direct acts and not representatives?
On the federal level, that’s not what or how a representation democracy works. On the state level, my state usually has quite a number of direct voter initiatives.
Wyoming sure needs more deathcamps alright! /s
Want me to name your operation a day before Maine is hollowed out?
I think you replied to the wrong person.
Then your direct acts are for who again?
Direct acts, as in voting to drive from here to there, or build a building someplace? Or acts, as in legislation that determines how gov’t is run? I think we are/were on a semantic parallel or something.
I am a black anarchist: saving lives is what we do. I directly act on injustices, and physically prevent bloodshed. 🇺🇲 genocides Native Americans, Civilians, Veterans, and Immigrants. How much more bloodshed do you need to see that less lives are genocided by your state, locally, and federally?
Block and move on folks
Good advice, thank you!
Bruh its illegal to say anything other than “Trump bad”
