also i can’t help but say “look. there’s much worse things for the fucking yuppy kids to do than make art. they could go into real estate, or military advancements. every lucky baby ducky making art about how fucked the world is is a tiny victory. they should do more to make room for the rest of us, but they literally have so much privilege they don’t know how. don’t make hating them your top priority in this global system of violence”
We were all really jazzed about that healthcare CEO getting killed, and then when they arrested Luigi my coworker was like, “He was quite privileged, you know,” like we aren’t allowed to like the guy anymore.
Why would we like him less? Being privileged and throwing that away means he had more to lose and allegedly did it anyway.
They see it as hypocrisy to change your mind like that. No growth allowed I guess. We need more privileged people to realize their mistakes and use their extra power to fix it. People on the inside also know more about how to fix things in my opinion.
Crabs in a bucket mentality is why utopia will never be achieved.
I’m trying to be one of those people. I realized how immense my privilege actually is I when I started to hang around a crowd of alternative people. I feel like I fit in much better there than with those others “that made it in life” (whatever that means). But it’s sometimes really awkward to make twice what they do for less effort day to day. I’m going into politics and try to influence where I can in my job and social circle since I fit in in places the true radicals can’t. The world really is fucked up. I try not to ashamed of my privilege, but instead grateful that I have the ability to make a bigger impact for less costs on a group of people that really needs to get the message.
I don’t think that Luigi was trying to fix anything, and if he was, it was a piss-poor way of doing it. Killing one guy isn’t going to change the system. What he did was an act of vengeance on a system that had fucked him over.
What did he change his mind on? He thought that he was too good to get fucked over that way, and as far as I know, he still does.ETA: Okay, I forgot that they published his manifesto. He did oppose the US healthcare system, although I still believe that his motivation came from personal circumstances.
Yet here we are talking about him
Yes, we are. What’s your point?
I never said that he wasn’t noteworthy.
Except for the part where he is innocent
He’s definitely innocent. Sorry, thought I had an “allegedly” in there. Gonna edit my comment to add one now, thanks for calling that out
Yes, this. Had someone get on me about this once and said it was hypocritical and conveniently selective. The reality though is that that behavior is antithetical to organizing. It imposes pointless rules that potentially push people away from the collective that we need. People don’t get a choice of the environment they are born into.
The reality though is that that behavior is antithetical to organize
That’s the point. It’s meant to be conversation stopping. If he were poor, it’s: he was envious of those who were successful.
If he’s rich: somehow they try to make it hypocritical
Because they don’t want the actual topic being discussed. That’s the point of the ad hominem, they attack the messenger so they don’t have to engage with the topic.
What kind of organizing are you talking about? I’m not interested in coordinating with people who are homicidal, thanks. It wasn’t hypocritical. It made perfect sense considering his circumstances.
You can support the “why” behind it but not the action. In this case it was people essentially writing him off entirely based solely on his position on the social ladder. Like because he comes from an affluent background means he suddenly can’t have the same qualms with the healthcare industry as working class folks.
Okay, why did he do it? And how do you know?
We can only assume it’s because the healthcare industry fucked him or his family over the same way it has done to a multitude of others.
Okay, I looked it up. I was wrong about him. We don’t have to assume. We know what his manifesto said, because it was published, and his struggle with the healthcare system was reported on in the news. Who knows what will come out in the trial, though.
When they’re putting you into one of the unmarked vans you can make yourself feel better by remembering how glad you are you never “coordinated with anyone homicidal.”
It’s not exactly your fault that your country is fucked, but it sure as hell is your fault it’s going to get worse.
don’t make hating them your top priority
So much this. I grew up fairly less affluent than most. I was once accused of being secretly rich because “no one would dress that poor on purpose”. And I’ve had a few less than stellar altercations with kids from rich families. Suffice it to say, I resented the fuck out of people with money/privilege; I still do. It’s a toxic mindset, and it drags you down and through the mud with no benefit. That old adage of “comparison is the thief of joy” really is true. Don’t let anyone steal your joy; especially yourself.
they literally have so much privilege they don’t know how
I’ll point you to Sam Reich, the quintessential liberal rich kid, who has been working overtime to platform dozens of shit kicker comedians and artists via Dropout.tv
I wouldn’t say they don’t know how. I’d say they try and most fail but a few don’t. And we’re all richer for the effort.
His dad’s one of the only mainstream democrats with consistently good takes (excluding previous support of Israel, but he’s at least stopped supporting them now), though. Not to take anything away from Sam Reich, but Robert Reich is literally a thought leader (worked in several presidential administrations including as secretary of labor under Clinton and was a professor for decades) in how to redistribute wealth. Sam could still have just been a shitty rich kid, and I’m glad he wasn’t (dropout is incredible), but he did have a much less awful example than most rich kids do.
The rich can afford to fail… multiple times.
I don’t understand where the altruism lies in dropout.tv
Isn’t it just another arts business startup?
Sam ran an episode of Game Changer that was barely more than “We trick LinkedIn into giving Jacob Wysocki $100k”
Also, plenty of legit good comedy from talented comics who struggle to get the time of day anywhere else. Idk if I’d call it “Altruistic”, but it’s a better use of Sam’s time than anyone in Silicon Valley or Wall Street could have spent it.
Yeah. From another angle, can’t blame the kids. It’s what most of us would do. If you have a child that you love, you want the world for them. Doesn’t matter your own conditions as long as you give them the best. You don’t want unbiased equality, you want them to be the priority. You make compromises and you make sacrifices because you must, for their sake. But you want to give them more and if you have the means, you will give them more, even if it makes you hypocritical.
I defy the system by making art anyway.
Never let them take it from you.
I try to sneak making music into the little time I have on weekends no matter how tired I am. Sometimes the feeling of just not doing it is strong, but I push through with it.
I have long thought that a UBI would generate a new renaissance.
In the early 90’s, myself and every single computing geek I knew thought the Internet would usher in a Renaissance of intellect.
It was humbling to be so sure and so wrong. While I hope the same as you do, I am not so sure of anything anymore.
You weren’t wrong across the board though. I know it’s hard to focus on the positives these days, and we are constantly bombarded with depressing and inane content, but we can’t lose sight of them.
It’s hard to overstate how much the internet has made scientific research and collaboration easier for instance. The sheer amount of research being done has exploded, and it’s far from being all slop. Publishers try their best to paywall the articles but they’re still available nonetheless.
And what about all the art that is shared online by people who would never, in a million years, have been able to show their creations to the world before the internet. Not to mention the people who don’t share it but can make it because of freely available information.
I know it’s not as idyllic as you probably foresaw it (yeah, understatement of the century, I know), but it did happen, even though unfortunately it also led to a gigantic pile of shit. Both can be true simultaneously.
Also Anna’s archive is what I always wanted. That and piracy sites mean that most of the movies, TV, and whatnot are easy to get noatter what
The problem is we don’t.live in a democracy
RIP Aaron Swartz. RIP Reddit.
Good point about science, eg mRNA Covid vaccine development. However because of social media emboldening cookers, the Western public is increasingly anti-science. Even the number of Flat-Earthers is on the increase.
Acrual law is online and yet delusional Sovereign Citizens make up their own law and have become deadly terrorists.
As for the arts I disagree even though I personally embraced the technology.
I was inspired by techno in the mid 90’s using daisy chained old Roland gear. Each person could afford one and together they were complete. It was punk ethos.
I then formed perhaps the first laptop electronic band in the world to take ot to the next level. Three of uswho already had computers banded together because each 80486 computer was not powerful enough on its own. The next generation of computers saw us splinter to go solo because we could.
Now I jam and record weekly with custom software over the Internet — me in Australia and other guy in Switzerland. But this space age workaround is out of necessity because locals in Sydney are unavailable. I would prefer to be in the same room for the vibe and have made a callout in local forums.
Respondents supposedly liked my music enough but nothing ever came from it once I revealed that there are no upcoming gigs and I am not interested in chasing gigs either. Youngsters seek fame (as always) while the older ones seek paying gigs to afford their rent. They don’t have time for creative collaboration for its own sake.
From a community standpoint, it was better pre-computer. Even night club DJ’s performed a different role as collectors and curators. Spotify has killed that. It is the enshittification of music.
In the early ’90s*
True. My way would be correct if it was pronounced nine zeroes (which it isn’t).
It would improve society in so many ways. The only people it wouldn’t benefit are the ruling class, and by harming the ruling class to benefit society, you benefit society. There are literally no downsides to it.
I so want a UBI. Time to help my community, make open source contributions in ways I deem meaningful and beneficial to society rather than driven by corporate profit, make art, and have as much time as I want with my family? Sign me up.
But we wouldn’t want to prove that people don’t need the fear of homelessness and starvation to be productive now would we?
Don’t wait for your country. How much do you want it? Are you willing to find all the other people who want it? Once enough people want it you can move into one place and pool parts of your income to create it.
Yes, some sort of commune is definitely not out of the question, on a personal level. That does not help the vast majority of people who stand to benefit from it (more so than me) though.
Grow it. If people benefit they will join.
That’s wait I want
3 minutes of Brian Eno talking on this very topic and undermining the concept of the genius.
Not me, I’m not good at art. I actually just really like building stuff. I guess I’m lucky that gets me paid well.
I think you can argue that building things is an art in itself.
My art tends to catch on fire when powered on instead of whatever I wanted it to do.
That’s just exciting art
Relays are expensive.
Then it just turns into performance art.
The art of making the house smell like atomized circuitry.
And how beautiful a flame is. Evokes emotion too, like panic. Definitely art.
outsider arts still art
Leonardo, meet Michelangelo.
I’m not worthy of holding a candle to the master of the craft.
Oh hi Spencer
It puts the “create” in “creative”
Supporting people through insightful turns of phrases is also an art form in of itself
Absolutely
If you didn’t have to worry about paying the bills, you would have more freedom to spend a little more money or time on things that you are building. To me that crosses into the art category. There’s plenty of architecture, furniture or cars that I call art just because those people had more funding and time.
It depends. I think what seperates art with non-art is creation and a sort of drive for impacting others positively and create something you are proud of.
Carpentry is absolutely art.
Stonework was traditionally art.
Metalwork and glasswork is an art.
Mechanical systems are also an art.
Good electronics design is an art.
Making actually good, useful software that people find great and user-friendly while being featureful is an art
Hell, electricians and plumbers who are passionate about their work (and not exploited) can leave behind absolute works of art that nobody will ever see.
Motivation, skill, and goals separate art from being slop work.
There is a ton of traditional “art” that is just profit-driven slop that isn’t art: see the entire art-to-money-laundering industry, Spotify AI music and a lot of generated non-composed shit, industrialized sculptures and decorations meant to be so generic they fit in every person’s house.
The correct terminology is people want to be able to express themselves and explore the world without being judged. Finding a purpose in what they want to do in and with their life. After all, no one was chosen to be born.
An important parallel to this, especially for those of us who grew up in the US, is to remember that your hobbies and the things you build can be for your own enrichment. They do not need to be efficient or profitable. The effect of the process on your psyche is far more important than the new inanimate object you possess at the end. But that’s not how our capitalist worker bee culture taught me to see it.
This is kind of how I treat hobbies. I don’t start learning Spanish to be able to speak Spanish for instance, like obviously you might get there. So for me it’s all about the journey and if I get bored and move on to something else that isn’t failure that’s chasing your curiosities and being open to try new things.
Also ADHD helps.
Haha, absolutely with the ADHD. I’m tempted to put a sign on all the shit I constructed this summer that says “the house that adderall built” or something like that, lol.
It also helps to have multiple projects going, as long as you keep it to a manageable number. Nothing like making progress on hobby project B to procrastinate on hobby project A because you aren’t feeling that one today.
Everytime my German teacher says something like “one day if you’re gonna be in Germany and say it as so and so…”, I always wonder: “should I tell her I don’t really care about pronunciation or stuff like that and am only learning this so I can better understand the memes that show up in my timeline?”
It’s been a little over a year and the secret is still up.
As I Brit who joined a German instance on here I feel I should learn German for the same reason there are so many memes.
The way I’ve heard this put is that our potential (skills, will, interest, gumption, etc) has been financialized.
It’s to the point where you’ll just even be day dreaming about some fun idea, and a little subroutine in your head will kick off titled but how do I monetize this?
This is ofc in large part due to the fact that you need to earn a lot of money to survive comfortably, but even that is an artificial condition that we could collectively change if we wanted.
I’m convinced that this process of self and imposed financialization ultimately costs us more joy, wellbeing, peace, and even productivity, than if we simply identified and addressed needs democratically.
a little subroutine in your head will kick off titled but how do I monetize this?
Yep, that is exactly it.
I have finally been winning the battle against that subroutine, and I still stomp that shit into the ground any time it makes a peep.
I’ve given away some cool stuff to some excited people this summer!
A parallel to this issue that still irks the shit out of me is the “huh… smart!” reaction when somebody takes the most greedy path possible. It gets to the point where generosity is a character flaw because it makes you a sucker and not a winner.
I have finally been winning the battle against that subroutine, and I still stomp that shit into the ground any time it makes a peep.
That’s great. I still hear it every now and then, and it never ends up making me feel better. It just starts turning whatever I’m doing into a job.
The only thing that’s worked for me is separating the jobs I do just for money to survive into like their own category. And then thinking of everything else (even if it’s actually very productive in non money ways) as a sort of “play” where anything is allowed, because I make the rules when I’m not on a job.
A parallel to this issue that still irks the shit out of me is the “huh… smart!” reaction when somebody takes the most greedy path possible. It gets to the point where generosity is a character flaw because it makes you a sucker and not a winner.
Omg yes, that’s its own weird societal pathology. It’s like we’ve assimilated the twisted values of the “clever” exec-sociopath type into our cultural script. That’s also part of what I’ve come to understand falls under “financialization.”
If Republicans actually gave a shit about small businesses, they would pass Medicare for All yesterday. Healthcare being tied to employment (with orgs that offer health insurance as part of compensation) is one of the biggest barriers to entrepreneurship in the United States.
Lack of healthcare is one of the biggest reasons I’ve never gone freelance for my programming work.
I’m a one person LLC. Health insurance is my biggest expense outside of my house payment. If you extrapolate over the last three years, those are the only two things that I’ve put more money in than retirement.
Seriously. Think of how many people would do something amazing if they could risk a gap in their employment without losing healthcare.
I disagree with the specific argument, but agree with the principle.
I think this is more palatable to Republicans:
- require businesses to offer the cash value of any benefits a business offers if the employee refuses it
- remove any tax benefits employers get for offering benefits, as well as any group discounts
- make emergency care free - ambulances, ER, airlifts, etc
- pass a negative income tax in lieu of welfare programs and Social Security - get cash up to the poverty line for no income, and the benefits drop up to some multiple of the poverty line (NIT, similar impact as UBI)
- expand medicare for those traditional insurance won’t cover for a reasonable amount (basically caps medical costs, while keeping the market competitive)
Basically, this preserves the private medical care system, strips any leverage companies have over you, and ensures everyone can afford it. Since unemployed people get cash, they can choose to try starting a business instead of being a wage slave if they can’t get a good job. The benefits would be low enough it would encourage people to work, but high enough that you’re not screwed if you can’t find work.
The goal should be for everyone to afford medical care regardless of means, not to have the government in control of medical care. I think this option is more palatable to those who want less government, and it also shouldn’t impact taxes too much.
require businesses to offer the cash value of any benefits a business offers if the employee refuses it
If you did this so many people would opt out of healthcare until their early 40s and just go to the emergency room for care more than they already do. The insurance pools would be lopsided and it would get even more expensive. And soo many less people would be doing any preventative care until things fall apart and they decide their insurance is worth it. Your also breaking the negotiation aspect of “insurance” by demanding them not be allowed to pool, meaning your insurance would cover less and less.
I am sure Republicans would love this plan, don’t let RFK see it.
The free emergency care would need some limits of course. I’m thinking they’ll merely get you stable (i.e. set bones, stop bleeding, etc), and once you’re able to consent, they’ll go through insurance or whatever. You would still very much want medical insurance.
But yes, people would go without, and I think having the option is good. If people can opt out, then insurance needs to have attractive prices. In addition, we’d need laws to ensure pricing is transparent so people can make informed decisions, instead of the current situation where you often don’t know the cost until care has already been provided.
I’m not arguing it’ll have ideal results in terms of health outcomes, only that it’ll promote small business. If UBI or something similar is designed to cover housing, food, and healthcare, and healthcare is optional, that increases cash available to entrepreneurs ant reduces mandatory cists to employ people.
But if the goal was to help small businesses, wouldn’t it make more sense to just go full public option? That way the small businesses don’t have to stress and budget for the insurance nonsense.
That depends on what you think is more helpful, paying for medical care or providing more cash. And Republicans certainly won’t go for both.
I think you need only look to countries with free healthcare to see that isn’t the case.
I think what this alludes to is the reality that the time and resources to self-actualize are still largely the domain of the owner class.
And many to most still seem to just chase a bigger hoard rather than do that.
yeah, i’ve got a buddy who illustrates. about 350 a page for friends [edit: last i bought something a decade ago]. he can whip them out decent quality pretty fast, but it took him years of training to get to that skill.
I don’t know if it’s art or just creation. Like, if I had infinite money I’d spend time on leatherworking and making little machines/programs. Both a form of creation.
Have I shown you my assorted lengths of wire?
It is creation. Humans have a knack for creating things using the gifts given from nature, as long as said humans have their basic needs met.
Creation can easily be art as well though. A lot of creative endeavors require you to be artistic on some level. I don’t think the two things are as easily separable as people think.
I think even the manner in which you go about creating things could be the way you express yourself artistically in some cases.
Same.
Like…exactly the same. Weird.
Yup. I’d probably dabble in blacksmithing, gardening, or coding apps.
This was discovered in the US shortly after the COVID-19 lockdown thanks to The Great Resignation when furloughed workers took to hobbies during lockdown and some of them found ones lucrative enough they decided to quit their (often toxic) jobs.
In fact, there’s been a strong effort by both principal political parties and the ownership class to memory-hole what happened 2020-2022 in which ordinary people were given enough material support to define for themselves their societal role, rather than having it defined for them by major commercial interests (who want them as cheap labor).
This is also how an unconditional socialized or community-centered system would work. (We might even call them socialism or communism if those were not the worst of all slurs in the United States). People can couch-potato and binge-watch TV for about two weeks before cabin fever sets in and they either start fixing and building. Those of us (like me) who can couch potato for longer than that suffer from mental illness (and in my case, have been diagnosed since my early twenties). I stayed in bed for nine months, often without the capacity to literally lift a finger thanks to my avolition. No one wants to be that lazy.
No, the current system is a grift, a scam to force people to engage in menial labor for super-cheap while they suffer abuse by their superiors, hence the RTO mandates, and how crunching development teams in AAA game development is still a thing.
Yes, I’m bitter, but Trump’s autocratic movement may be the last gasp of neoliberalism, and either we’re going to see steps towards a new New Deal or we’re going to see our Tech-Bro oligarch masters try to fascism all of the US and the reprisal will be even more revolutionary (and more violent).
Didn’t all the government payments also kick off a bunch of inflation? Seems like a downside.
Only because they fotgave every loan to businesses. The handouts mostly went the owners.
Come on. Apply some critical thinking here. That inflation surge was in the middle of the epochal Covid-induced supply chain shocks. Moreover, there isn’t some fixed quantity of widgets we can produce. It’s easy to avoid inflation when implementing major income redistribution. You just do it gradually. The problem with Covid stimulus was that it had to be delivered all at once. But if implemented gradually, production can simply be scaled up to meet increased demand.
“Hey, Moe, can I pay my rent with a picture?”
“Yeah, no. Nice try there, 12-step.”
“Oh… Ok…”
My inability to draw definitely isn’t related to my mortgage.
Everybody has an inability to draw until they learn how.
Not all art is drawing. Music is a big one. If you don’t know how to play music you have electronic music.
If you still want something more plastic, there are forms of graphic art that do not rely on manual drawing abilities. You can do 3d renders for instance. But also several stiles that do not requiere much ability. You can even code a piece of art through a generative algorithm in something like p5.
There’s also photography, and video.
Writing, from poetry to full novels.
Art is limitless.
Same, I’ve tried and failed way too much. I almost failed a high school drawing class that was pass/fail because I bombed my final (teacher thought I was slacking off… I’m just really slow). I tried one of those do it yourself drawing courses and gave up after a few months after making little progress. I’ve tried and it’s not for me.
I am decent at software dev though. If I have spare time, I’ll work on personal projects, but after a full time job and young kids, there just isn’t much left over. I’m in the middle of a P2P reddit alternative and a strategy game, but neither will be finished anytime soon.
I think those projects are artistic expression as well, because I’m building it not to get paid, but to add something beautiful to the world. I’m sure you have something like that as well.
it’s weird, i don’t think i’ve had this urge. i have an urge but i don’t know what it is.
I’ve never considered myself an artistic person, but many years ago I was laid off and had a few months of time to fill, and in a surprise to myself, I started making pixel art animations and absolutely loved it. It fulfilled some sort of latent creative need that I didn’t realize was there until I had the time.
I think many of us would be surprised at what parts of our personalities come out when not suppressed by the daily grind.
i spent the last six months doing nothing at work because there was nothing for me to do, and i’ve just been doing “code doodles”. snippets that don’t do anything. i don’t think it’s because i wanted to make them, i just wanted to look like i was doing something. my proof is that now that i’ve been laid off (because there was nothing for me to do), i don’t find myself wanting to do anything in particular, but wanting to do something. every single thing feels forced, but when i try to get my brain to actually tell me what it is i do want i just get nothing.
Do you have ADHD by any chance? Because I do, and that sounds kinda familiar.
That constant urge to be creating something. Or more to the point; to have already created something, something that wasn’t the thing you have to work on for your wage.
I mostly manage to quieten that urge by doing a weekly radio show.
i would love to know. the official stance of public healthcare here is that “if you can function in society, evaluation of a diagnosis is not needed”. and getting it done through a private actor costs money that i can not spend right now.
If you’re taking suggestions - I enjoy making things, quite often what I enjoy is looking at something someone else (or some company) made and figuring out how to do it myself/build the skills necessary to do it/improve on the original design.
i will always take the option to watch other people do things. whenever i try to do it myself it always turns to shit.
Haha, that’s fair, but it’s also how we get better.
Sometimes finding the right thing, on a day that you have the right energy and focus, is the hard part. A lot of people face something similar when they enter retirement.
i’ve faced it since age 10. i’ve always wondered how people create.
Art is just doing something for the pride of it. A carpenter or electrician can be an artist. People express art in countless ways. I think it would be very unlikely you aren’t an artist in at least one aspect of your life.
god i wish
If given an opportunity, I think you would. Maybe not right away, but of you didn’t have to work, I think you’d build something instead of just playing video games or watching TV, because that gets old.
Some options:
- software dev - this is me, I want to build a P2P reddit alternative and video games
- 3d modeling
- landscaping
- cooking
- welding
All of that is art. Art is just building something for the sake of seeing it exist rather than to pay the bills. Chances are that if you could choose your work instead of whatever you’re doing now, it would include creative expression.
i don’t understand where people get this idea that they know me
I don’t know you specifically, but people I do know generally have something they’d like to create. I think those that don’t would if given enough of an opportunity (i.e. not a week or two off work, but several months).
we’ll see won’t we
I’m an artist and rent is due. If I focus on one I end up homeless (again). If I focus on the other I’ll want to kill myself because my life would have no more meaning.
Only thing I’ve been creating lately is chaos…
