Huh that’s neat, I didn’t know they just plugged into a socket. From what I know balancing the voltage and frequency of an electric grid is extremely delicate business, but I guess it’s fine since it’s so much electrically smaller than the main generators?
Also stuffing an inverter in random small electronics is probably so much easier than it used to be not that long ago.
What about batteries? Could you plug one of those big, AC camping “powerbanks” in between the solar and the mains? So that devices downstream are able to run directly off solar energy without going “into” and “out of” the grid?
I have something like that I bought here in the US but the power generated won’t power the whole home. It does charge my emergency battery though for when the power is out.
Right but the way I understand it is if you get the plug in style and let it generate some power during the day it will offset your usage and save you money on the bill.
Yes, lile that. There are also types (like the Anker generators for mobile homes / boats etc) which can run stand-alone, but the German balkony solar panels just add cheap supply to the domestic power use by plugging it into the household AC system.
800w is less than half what you could pull from any outlet in the US. Standard electric breakers are rated for 15amp continuous at 120v. Most heating appliances designed to run for long periods of time (like electric heaters, or countertop cooking) run around 1800watts. So you could pretty easily plug in two 800w solar panels to back-feed a single circuit.
50amp 220v is about the limit on one circuit for most residential homes (for ovens, or electric central heating) which is what would be used for the fastest electric car charging at home.
That’s plenty of headroom for in-circuit solar generation.
No reason it can’t be done on 120v (from a technical level). In fact, most solar inverters in the US could do this at a technical level as they basically do the same thing, just on a larger scale (higher current and therefore are wired in to electrical panels rather than through outlet as outlets have lower current limits). All you need is the inverter to synchronize its AC output to match grid. If you had a smaller inverter, you could just connect it to an outlet (ignoring building codes, insurance, and other non technical reasons). So the choice is then to have centralized larger inverters or smaller inverters per panel or 2. If you live in a very densely populated area where you can only pit a panel or 2 on a balcony or you don’t have control of your electrical panel, then the small inverter method makes sense.
You can plug anything back into your how power system so long as the reverse current is not more than the ratings of the wires & equipment that current runs through.
In the US, most residential outlets are rated for 15-20 Amps at 120 Volts. You’d need to find a solar panel that matches these ratings. There are what’s called “AC solar panels” or just panels with micro inverters that transform the DC electricity from the panel to AC right on the panel itself. As long as the circuit you plug into is rated for it, you can plug as many panels like this into your home power system.
I’d have to check the National Electrical Code (NEC), but I believe that if you’re planning on making those solar panels permanent, and since the hypothetical ones in this conversation have “plug and cord” connections, you’d need to hardwire those panels with wiring hidden behind drywall. If you truly plan to use those panels temporarily, such as seasonally, maybe you can make the argument that you don’t need to do that.
It’s all up to your Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ), which is usually your town’s or city’s Building or Electrical Department.
I was surprised when I read about it too, but it’s true, they quite literally just plug them right into the normal plugs.
It works because there’s a certain tolerance on the German breakers that allow for power to reverse.
The balcony panels take advantage of this.
However this also limits the possible output to whatever the tolerance is, otherwise it would overload and shut off or worse.
How does that even work? Panel would generate DC current and outlet would need AC. Then even when you have AC, you need to match the frequency, if outlet AC has a peak in its wave and panel has a trough, would this not cause problems?
Also, does germany has pure sine wave electricity? Or is it like 3 line and 1 neutral?
Edit: nvm, i guess it has a normal on-grid inverter system built in
@just_an_average_joe
You are right that this setup needs a DC-AC inverter often sold together with the PV panel and the inverter is designed for this purpose. It sort of rides on the sine wave from the outlet. Yes, this only works on one phase while the building gets 3 phases, but practically it does not matter since the meter sums all three phases.
There was some debate over the technical standard and meter type, German bureaucracy and lobbying! @bstix
I have 54 solar panels that are 1x2m apiece (108m2 total), and they generate barely enough to keep my house running in the winter, and have to be supplemented by a generator in the winter for December and January since it’s entirely offgrid.
I don’t think a couple panels on a balcony are doing much more than charging a couple phones.
Since a lot of people live in rented flats, the 800w these so called “balcony solar plants” can cover your base load, thus reducing your electric bill. Of course they can’t support whatever setup you seem to have where 108m2 of solar can’t cover it
Here in Germany we have balcony solar panels. They are just plugged into a socket - no electrical installation needed - and pay off quickly.
Huh that’s neat, I didn’t know they just plugged into a socket. From what I know balancing the voltage and frequency of an electric grid is extremely delicate business, but I guess it’s fine since it’s so much electrically smaller than the main generators?
Also stuffing an inverter in random small electronics is probably so much easier than it used to be not that long ago.
What about batteries? Could you plug one of those big, AC camping “powerbanks” in between the solar and the mains? So that devices downstream are able to run directly off solar energy without going “into” and “out of” the grid?
If mains goes down they stop feeding in power within 10 ms, or so. Of course, you can illegally feed in more, if you know what you’re doing.
I have something like that I bought here in the US but the power generated won’t power the whole home. It does charge my emergency battery though for when the power is out.
to power the whole home you need a hell of a lot more than the balcony ones. but every little bit helps.
Right but the way I understand it is if you get the plug in style and let it generate some power during the day it will offset your usage and save you money on the bill.
Yes, lile that. There are also types (like the Anker generators for mobile homes / boats etc) which can run stand-alone, but the German balkony solar panels just add cheap supply to the domestic power use by plugging it into the household AC system.
I think you guys running 220 through the whole house is why we don’t have that stateside, just a guess.
800w is less than half what you could pull from any outlet in the US. Standard electric breakers are rated for 15amp continuous at 120v. Most heating appliances designed to run for long periods of time (like electric heaters, or countertop cooking) run around 1800watts. So you could pretty easily plug in two 800w solar panels to back-feed a single circuit.
50amp 220v is about the limit on one circuit for most residential homes (for ovens, or electric central heating) which is what would be used for the fastest electric car charging at home.
That’s plenty of headroom for in-circuit solar generation.
No reason it can’t be done on 120v (from a technical level). In fact, most solar inverters in the US could do this at a technical level as they basically do the same thing, just on a larger scale (higher current and therefore are wired in to electrical panels rather than through outlet as outlets have lower current limits). All you need is the inverter to synchronize its AC output to match grid. If you had a smaller inverter, you could just connect it to an outlet (ignoring building codes, insurance, and other non technical reasons). So the choice is then to have centralized larger inverters or smaller inverters per panel or 2. If you live in a very densely populated area where you can only pit a panel or 2 on a balcony or you don’t have control of your electrical panel, then the small inverter method makes sense.
How does the outlet work putting electricty back into it? You sure it’s not a special outlet?
No. It is just wires that transport energy. Old power meters will even run backwards.
For safety, these panels have some electronics that switch them off when it is not plugged in, or during power outages.
You can plug anything back into your how power system so long as the reverse current is not more than the ratings of the wires & equipment that current runs through.
In the US, most residential outlets are rated for 15-20 Amps at 120 Volts. You’d need to find a solar panel that matches these ratings. There are what’s called “AC solar panels” or just panels with micro inverters that transform the DC electricity from the panel to AC right on the panel itself. As long as the circuit you plug into is rated for it, you can plug as many panels like this into your home power system.
I’d have to check the National Electrical Code (NEC), but I believe that if you’re planning on making those solar panels permanent, and since the hypothetical ones in this conversation have “plug and cord” connections, you’d need to hardwire those panels with wiring hidden behind drywall. If you truly plan to use those panels temporarily, such as seasonally, maybe you can make the argument that you don’t need to do that.
It’s all up to your Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ), which is usually your town’s or city’s Building or Electrical Department.
Depends on the country iirc. But most European countries allow you to discharge 800 watt unless you install it on a separate breaker. Regular socket
I was surprised when I read about it too, but it’s true, they quite literally just plug them right into the normal plugs.
It works because there’s a certain tolerance on the German breakers that allow for power to reverse. The balcony panels take advantage of this. However this also limits the possible output to whatever the tolerance is, otherwise it would overload and shut off or worse.
How does that even work? Panel would generate DC current and outlet would need AC. Then even when you have AC, you need to match the frequency, if outlet AC has a peak in its wave and panel has a trough, would this not cause problems? Also, does germany has pure sine wave electricity? Or is it like 3 line and 1 neutral?
Edit: nvm, i guess it has a normal on-grid inverter system built in
@just_an_average_joe
You are right that this setup needs a DC-AC inverter often sold together with the PV panel and the inverter is designed for this purpose. It sort of rides on the sine wave from the outlet. Yes, this only works on one phase while the building gets 3 phases, but practically it does not matter since the meter sums all three phases.
There was some debate over the technical standard and meter type, German bureaucracy and lobbying!
@bstix
We fought to make it legal and solar from the balcony just works. You plug the device into your regular 220V AC outlet.
Wikpedia has pictures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony/_solar/_power
In Germany you can buy those in home-improvement stores or online. Your local lidl or aldi might have one occassionally.
@bstix @just_an_average_joe
It’s the same grid as most of Europe. AC 3 phases 50 hz 230/400 V.
Other places can do the same, but it’s a legal issue rather than technical. It’s difficult to tax.
It doesn’t have a direction.
deleted by creator
Sadly, Switzerland missed the oportunity and even conventional solar installations barely pay off now.
I have 54 solar panels that are 1x2m apiece (108m2 total), and they generate barely enough to keep my house running in the winter, and have to be supplemented by a generator in the winter for December and January since it’s entirely offgrid.
I don’t think a couple panels on a balcony are doing much more than charging a couple phones.
Since a lot of people live in rented flats, the 800w these so called “balcony solar plants” can cover your base load, thus reducing your electric bill. Of course they can’t support whatever setup you seem to have where 108m2 of solar can’t cover it