What were you hoping to achieve with this? You sure showed them, not all natural activities are bad. Unfortunately, they didn’t say that. You’re arguing against nobody
Eh, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t at one point or that it can’t be part of our reproductive strategy in the future. I’d even say that murder and cannibalism are very normal aspects of our species.
You’re probably getting downvoted (I didn’t just fyi) because it wasn’t really relevant to the discussion. No one’s disputing if cannibalism is natural, I was just trying to point out that killing and eating children is natural and yet still morally wrong to do.
>inb4 some child left behind replies with “are you equating eating meat for sustenance with rape?”
Yes. You could eat something else for sustenance. The reason you choose meat is because it’s a more enjoyable experience for you, despite the inherent harm. That sounds similar to another topic I mentioned in this comment
Not really, some things are objectively bad and wrong and other things are merely subjective.
The problem we’re having here are people who hold their subjective beliefs very strongly are then adamant that it makes said beliefs objective, just because they believe them.
even things like killing being bad is not objective in my opinion, it just simply stems from our minds and societies’ process of growth through natural selection.
We believe that killing is bad only because we share the majority of their DNA and we are close genetically to what we’re killing. It was evolutionarily incentivised to not kill those that are genetically close, as they and we share common ancestors from which such thoughts evolved.
this is imo why we value humans more than other animals, animals more than vegetables and relatives over strangers. Friends being valued more than strangers make sense as well, as they share ideas in the place of the shared genome.
in a wider scope none of this matters anyway, our lives and deaths are irrelevant to the universe and our lives don’t actually matter outside what our minds tell us.
Almost all herbivores are opportunistic carnivores. Cows are known to eat rats found in the hay. Horses sometimes gobble down a chick if they feel like it.
All these strict rules people believe about biology were prescribed by scholars of old who believed in a perfect creation where everything had its place, but reality is very messy.
99% of vegans dont say eating meat in itself is wrong and this bullshit narrative needs to stop
Edit: I wrote “in itself” to make it especially clear, but it seems people are skipping that part. The act of eating meat can not be evil, carnivorous animals do it for survival. The context is always what matters.
I would go as far as to say that most vegans wouldn’t have a moral problem with eating roadkill. The physical act of eating meat is only harmful to an animal if it’s still alive while you’re eating it. The problem is the part before that, where you paid someone to hurt it
It’s all about assumed context. If you ask that question in English on the internet, most readers assume you’re talking about in the US, or failing that, in a developed country in the West. Therefore if you buy a pound of beef, it’s from a factory farm.
They’re not going to assume you’re a scavenger harvesting meat from already dead caribou in the artic.
The majority of humans don’t scavange meat from already dead animals, even in poorer countries wtf
Soy Salvadoreño y nadie en mi familia ni los vecinos ni el pueblo estaban comiendo animales muertos ni cuando tenían zapatos. Chele morongon, que crees tan bajo de los pobres???
Not all English speakers are from the “west”, since it’s a lingua franca.
You literally put in that the only option in developed countries is factory farmed meat, which is also not true. There’s even European countries where the factory farming of the USA isn’t allowed, and plenty of developing countries where it’s encouraged.
you imply by saying only developed countries have this option, as if developing countries don’t, and for some reason bring up fucking scavanging as one of developing countries alternatives? Really? You think that lowly of them that just classic old ranching didn’t come to your mind??? The fuck dude. You just pulled a “those kids in Africa” or “the doctor is the male nurse” moment even if you didn’t mean to. You clearly haven’t traveled much.
What ever horror humanity has done, we are still holding the beer of invertebrates.
And yet nature’s is is not a justification for aught. The fruit of the tree of wisdom (mythically) gave us empathy that we may live in harmony with neighbors, and in the late game, we have learned the imperative to see value in the fallow wilds.
A century ago, a vegan diet for humans as extremely difficult, possibly impossible. And to quote Saruman the forests will burn in the fires of industry! And they have.
We are not a vegan culture today because the food industry focuses on sales and profits, not on nutrition and health.
Though to be fair our massive land-hungry industrial farms will affect the biomes around them regardless of whether we grow plants or ranch livestock. Veganism is part of a solution towards a more harmonious civilization, but misses several pieces.
does this look natural to u?
I can side with the vegans that the meat industry needs to be clamped down on hard
But eating meat in of itself is not wrong, that is what is natural
Murder and rape are also “natural.”
There are plenty of things that are ‘natural’ that are wrong to do, why is eating meat any different?
Homosexuality has been observed among a great many species, particularly birds and mammals.
What where we talking about again?
What were you hoping to achieve with this? You sure showed them, not all natural activities are bad. Unfortunately, they didn’t say that. You’re arguing against nobody
Killing and eating your children has been observed among a great many species, particularly reptiles and mammals.
What where we talking about again?
Eh, it doesn’t mean that it wasn’t at one point or that it can’t be part of our reproductive strategy in the future. I’d even say that murder and cannibalism are very normal aspects of our species.
E: I guess I’m getting downvoted for seemingly pulling that out of my ass. But I recommend the book Dinner with a Cannibal: The Complete History of Mankind’s Oldest Taboo by Caroline A. Travis-Henikoff. It’s a serious look at how cannibalism shaped our cultures and evolution.
You’re probably getting downvoted (I didn’t just fyi) because it wasn’t really relevant to the discussion. No one’s disputing if cannibalism is natural, I was just trying to point out that killing and eating children is natural and yet still morally wrong to do.
That’s a personal choice that people are allowed to make for themselves.
See this is what I told people when they found out I had sex with my dog, and they said I was crazy and abusive! Like, it’s my own choice!
>inb4 some child left behind replies with “are you equating eating meat for sustenance with rape?”
Yes. You could eat something else for sustenance. The reason you choose meat is because it’s a more enjoyable experience for you, despite the inherent harm. That sounds similar to another topic I mentioned in this comment
Are the animals also allowed a choice in the matter?
That misses the question a bit, no? Everything that is wrong to do is a personal choice. It’s not relevant to whether or not it should be done
Not really, some things are objectively bad and wrong and other things are merely subjective.
The problem we’re having here are people who hold their subjective beliefs very strongly are then adamant that it makes said beliefs objective, just because they believe them.
Killing someone who’s done nothing to you and doesn’t want to die is pretty objectively bad.
Yes, killing other people is objectively bad. Thank you for agreeing with me.
Could you tell me how you measured that badness and how I can repeat the experiment?
What is the ‘objective’ source of your morality?
There is none. It’s just my view based on how people see things. You’re allowed to not agree, it doesn’t have to be combative.
even things like killing being bad is not objective in my opinion, it just simply stems from our minds and societies’ process of growth through natural selection.
We believe that killing is bad only because we share the majority of their DNA and we are close genetically to what we’re killing. It was evolutionarily incentivised to not kill those that are genetically close, as they and we share common ancestors from which such thoughts evolved.
this is imo why we value humans more than other animals, animals more than vegetables and relatives over strangers. Friends being valued more than strangers make sense as well, as they share ideas in the place of the shared genome.
in a wider scope none of this matters anyway, our lives and deaths are irrelevant to the universe and our lives don’t actually matter outside what our minds tell us.
Yo this seems to be a bad take
I think something that defines humanity is that we really try not to follow the “rules of nature”, ie. the rule of the stronger over the weaker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
Yes, but most people in the west don’t have the option to eat meat that are not from the meat industry.
That is exactly why veganism is attractive in the west.
Exactly as a vegan ex explained it to me.
Yeah, I wash shocked to find out that Squirrels hunted and ate smaller mice when they felt the urge.
Almost all herbivores are opportunistic carnivores. Cows are known to eat rats found in the hay. Horses sometimes gobble down a chick if they feel like it.
All these strict rules people believe about biology were prescribed by scholars of old who believed in a perfect creation where everything had its place, but reality is very messy.
Carnivores, not cannibals lol
All cannibals are carnivores but not all carnivores are cannibals.
Thanks 😅
99% of vegans dont say eating meat in itself is wrong and this bullshit narrative needs to stop
Edit: I wrote “in itself” to make it especially clear, but it seems people are skipping that part. The act of eating meat can not be evil, carnivorous animals do it for survival. The context is always what matters.
I would go as far as to say that most vegans wouldn’t have a moral problem with eating roadkill. The physical act of eating meat is only harmful to an animal if it’s still alive while you’re eating it. The problem is the part before that, where you paid someone to hurt it
You haven’t been here long, have you?
Youre saying vegans want to stop animals from eating other animals? I dont think so.
🤣 go to the Lemmy vegan community and say that. I’m sure you’ll easily get 99 upvotes and only a single downvote
It’s all about assumed context. If you ask that question in English on the internet, most readers assume you’re talking about in the US, or failing that, in a developed country in the West. Therefore if you buy a pound of beef, it’s from a factory farm.
They’re not going to assume you’re a scavenger harvesting meat from already dead caribou in the artic.
The majority of humans don’t scavange meat from already dead animals, even in poorer countries wtf
Soy Salvadoreño y nadie en mi familia ni los vecinos ni el pueblo estaban comiendo animales muertos ni cuando tenían zapatos. Chele morongon, que crees tan bajo de los pobres???
Incredible that you were able to mental gymnastics what I said into an attack on poor people and you assumed I can read Spanish.
I wish you well in your mental health crisis.
Not all English speakers are from the “west”, since it’s a lingua franca.
You literally put in that the only option in developed countries is factory farmed meat, which is also not true. There’s even European countries where the factory farming of the USA isn’t allowed, and plenty of developing countries where it’s encouraged.
you imply by saying only developed countries have this option, as if developing countries don’t, and for some reason bring up fucking scavanging as one of developing countries alternatives? Really? You think that lowly of them that just classic old ranching didn’t come to your mind??? The fuck dude. You just pulled a “those kids in Africa” or “the doctor is the male nurse” moment even if you didn’t mean to. You clearly haven’t traveled much.
we were talking about chickens not beef.
I can go to a conservative community and say liberals have horns and get the same result. It proves nothing.
Pretty horrifying if you let yourself think of it.
What ever horror humanity has done, we are still holding the beer of invertebrates.
And yet nature’s is is not a justification for aught. The fruit of the tree of wisdom (mythically) gave us empathy that we may live in harmony with neighbors, and in the late game, we have learned the imperative to see value in the fallow wilds.
A century ago, a vegan diet for humans as extremely difficult, possibly impossible. And to quote Saruman the forests will burn in the fires of industry! And they have.
We are not a vegan culture today because the food industry focuses on sales and profits, not on nutrition and health.
Though to be fair our massive land-hungry industrial farms will affect the biomes around them regardless of whether we grow plants or ranch livestock. Veganism is part of a solution towards a more harmonious civilization, but misses several pieces.
What the crap is this response?