My math is based on numbers from the USDA. your sources are narratives from biased organizations. Even they aren’t dishonest enough to not admit that male calves are raised for beef. they prefer to focus on the veal production because they think it’s more horrific but try to pin them down on the actual number of cattle that are brought to full weight before slaughter.
USDA is inherently biased toward animal farming, and the first source I linked was a scientific study. But I’m not necessarily denying what USDA says. Holding a bias doesn’t automatically make something untrue. You didn’t quote anything they said, you made some hasty calculations based on their statistics, which seemed to overlook the distinction between male calves and female calves. You used this to make a statement that I never disagreed with, because I was making a different one. (One could call that a strawman fallacy).
Humane League is an animal welfare organisation. Of course they’re going to focus on the most ethically unsound aspects of animal farming, since that’s their purpose, but nothing they said was false. They did acknowledge that some male calves in the dairy industry are raised for beef, but that most are killed for veal.
Most what? Calves or male calves? Because it’s factually incorrect to say that most male calves aren’t killed for veal. They evidently are.
But let’s ignore that for a second. The fact that any calves in the dairy industry are killed for veal, or even for beef (at only a few years older, still a fraction of their natural lifespan), is of course a harm, whether you agree with it or not. Killing an animal is harming them, no matter if they’re a baby animal or a few-year-old animal.
It’s a harm toward animals that some might justify as a necessary component of dairy production, which it is. But this ignores the fact that dairy production itself isn’t necessary. And that was the crux of the fallacy I’m alluding to.
In some instances or regions, a majority of male dairy calves are indeed destined for veal production. The dairy industry faces challenges in finding economically viable uses for male calves since they don’t produce milk. As a result, many operations choose veal production as a way to utilize these calves.
If we say for sake of example that in some cases, only a small percentage of male calves of dairy cows are used for veal (when largely it is the majority), that’s still billions and eventually trillions of baby animals killed in the long run. Also, many are killed upon birth and not even used for veal but simply discarded or used for other purposes ( https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-dirty-secret-its-still-cheaper-to-kill-male-calves-than-to-rear-them ). The ones that are raised and killed for beef at a few years old still wouldn’t be if the dairy industry wasn’t breeding these animals in the first place. And they wouldn’t be separated from their mothers, be mutilated, or face a number of other cruel practices.
The bottom line is that the dairy industry causes harm and suffering to animals, including supplementing connected industries like veal and beef, which many people justify as a way to minimise waste of necessary byproducts of the dairy industry, while ignoring or overlooking the fact that the dairy industry itself is unnecessary.
That is clearly a logical fallacy, whereby someone justifies harmful actions as a necessary component of an in fact unnecessary larger set of actions. If you would focus on the actual question at hand, instead of making a tirade against the example I used.
By the way, I think it might be called a false necessity or false requirement fallacy, but that may not be widely recognised. It’s related to the more general false dilemma/false dichotomy fallacy I described earlier, but also could be described as a fallacy of composition:
“The fallacy of composition happens when someone assumes that what’s true for parts of something must also be true for the whole thing. Basically, they think that if each piece has a certain quality, then the entire thing automatically has that same quality, which might not be the case.”
In other words, assuming that because one aspect of something is required as a component of that larger thing, the whole thing itself must also be required, when that isn’t necessarily true.
Conserving resources within the dairy industry, such as consuming the surpluss calves and cattle that are killed, might make sense from an economic standpoint.
But the dairy industry itself isn’t necessary. It matters because instead of supporting it by buying the veal and beef byproducts derived from it, we could simply boycott the whole industry entirely, which would eliminate all of the harms involved in it.
You seem to have made the exact fallacy that I’m describing in my post, as seen in the title.
“Veal is meat, but it’s actually a cruel co-product of the dairy industry. If you consume dairy products you’re actually supporting the veal industry, too.”
The veal industry is an unavoidable component of the dairy industry, as well as the slaughtering of cattle for beef, and a lot of other harmful practices to animals.
All of these practices are often justified (by some people) as a necessary component of dairy, while ignoring the fact that dairy itself isn’t necessary, so therefore none of the practices within it are, either.
Hence, justifying one thing as a necessary component of another unnecessary thing.
If you would focus on the actual question at hand, instead of making a tyrade against the example I used.
I only wanted to point out some facts. I am not going on a tirade. your comments are longer than mine by orders of magnitude, and unable to stay focused on the only topic I mentioned in my first comment in this thread.
It’s a large topic that you opened up when I never intended for that. And you made some pretty long comments with wide-reaching implications as well. It takes a lot to debunk these claims, or explain why they’re specious in their reasoning and don’t invalidate the overall point.
The fact that any calves in the dairy industry are killed for veal, or even for beef (at only a few years older, still a fraction of their natural lifespan), is of course a harm, whether you agree with it or not. Killing an animal is harming them, no matter if they’re a baby animal or a few-year-old animal.
ok…
It’s a harm toward animals that some might justify as a necessary component of dairy production, which it is. But
no, it’s not.
dairy production itself isn’t necessary. And that was the crux of the fallacy I’m alluding to.
my first comment was acknowledging that it’s just an example.
It’s absolutely necessary to kill cattle for meat in the dairy industry. It would not be financially viable otherwise, and small-scale farms that try to avoid this practice can’t provide enough dairy to feed the human population if they’re consuming dairy; and they still involve other unavoidable cruelties inherent in taking the milk designed for calves, separating them and selectively breeding cows to overproduce milk, docking and debudding them, etc etc.
It would not be financially viable otherwise, and small-scale farms that try to avoid this practice can’t provide enough dairy to feed the human population
but if you disregard this arbitrary goal, then any particular dairy operation could, in fact, operate apart from the meat industry.
It’s not an arbitrary goal, because in order to provide dairy to everyone, these practices must happen (when we don’t need to provide dairy to everyone). I guess I could clarify that rather than it being a necessary component of dairy production to kill calves and cattle, for example, it’s a necessary component of dairy production on a scale to feed our planet, or even any significant human populations. For all intents and purposes as they apply to most people, and when considering the industry as a whole, these practices are necessary for dairy production, while dairy production itself isn’t necessary.
Milk is actually made by cows for their calves, when they fall pregnant to one. Humans are exploiting the milk intended for the calves, by definition. And as a result, we forcefully impregnate those cows, too.
You used this to make a statement that I never disagreed with, because I was making a different one.
I am the one who made the claim about the amount of cattle that become veal. I then supported it when you said that I was wrong. nothing you’ve provided actually contradicts what I have said or the data that I provided.
My math is based on numbers from the USDA. your sources are narratives from biased organizations. Even they aren’t dishonest enough to not admit that male calves are raised for beef. they prefer to focus on the veal production because they think it’s more horrific but try to pin them down on the actual number of cattle that are brought to full weight before slaughter.
USDA is inherently biased toward animal farming, and the first source I linked was a scientific study. But I’m not necessarily denying what USDA says. Holding a bias doesn’t automatically make something untrue. You didn’t quote anything they said, you made some hasty calculations based on their statistics, which seemed to overlook the distinction between male calves and female calves. You used this to make a statement that I never disagreed with, because I was making a different one. (One could call that a strawman fallacy).
Humane League is an animal welfare organisation. Of course they’re going to focus on the most ethically unsound aspects of animal farming, since that’s their purpose, but nothing they said was false. They did acknowledge that some male calves in the dairy industry are raised for beef, but that most are killed for veal.
most are not killed for veal
Most what? Calves or male calves? Because it’s factually incorrect to say that most male calves aren’t killed for veal. They evidently are.
But let’s ignore that for a second. The fact that any calves in the dairy industry are killed for veal, or even for beef (at only a few years older, still a fraction of their natural lifespan), is of course a harm, whether you agree with it or not. Killing an animal is harming them, no matter if they’re a baby animal or a few-year-old animal.
It’s a harm toward animals that some might justify as a necessary component of dairy production, which it is. But this ignores the fact that dairy production itself isn’t necessary. And that was the crux of the fallacy I’m alluding to.
I did the math. there is no way more than 5% of male calves become veal, no matter how much propaganda has been produced to the contrary.
do you need help with the algebra or arithmetic?
In some instances or regions, a majority of male dairy calves are indeed destined for veal production. The dairy industry faces challenges in finding economically viable uses for male calves since they don’t produce milk. As a result, many operations choose veal production as a way to utilize these calves.
If we say for sake of example that in some cases, only a small percentage of male calves of dairy cows are used for veal (when largely it is the majority), that’s still billions and eventually trillions of baby animals killed in the long run. Also, many are killed upon birth and not even used for veal but simply discarded or used for other purposes ( https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-dirty-secret-its-still-cheaper-to-kill-male-calves-than-to-rear-them ). The ones that are raised and killed for beef at a few years old still wouldn’t be if the dairy industry wasn’t breeding these animals in the first place. And they wouldn’t be separated from their mothers, be mutilated, or face a number of other cruel practices.
The bottom line is that the dairy industry causes harm and suffering to animals, including supplementing connected industries like veal and beef, which many people justify as a way to minimise waste of necessary byproducts of the dairy industry, while ignoring or overlooking the fact that the dairy industry itself is unnecessary.
That is clearly a logical fallacy, whereby someone justifies harmful actions as a necessary component of an in fact unnecessary larger set of actions. If you would focus on the actual question at hand, instead of making a tirade against the example I used.
By the way, I think it might be called a false necessity or false requirement fallacy, but that may not be widely recognised. It’s related to the more general false dilemma/false dichotomy fallacy I described earlier, but also could be described as a fallacy of composition:
“The fallacy of composition happens when someone assumes that what’s true for parts of something must also be true for the whole thing. Basically, they think that if each piece has a certain quality, then the entire thing automatically has that same quality, which might not be the case.”
In other words, assuming that because one aspect of something is required as a component of that larger thing, the whole thing itself must also be required, when that isn’t necessarily true.
ok…
conserving resources is good…
I don’t see why that matters. we do have a dairy industry. conserving resources within it is just smart.
Conserving resources within the dairy industry, such as consuming the surpluss calves and cattle that are killed, might make sense from an economic standpoint.
But the dairy industry itself isn’t necessary. It matters because instead of supporting it by buying the veal and beef byproducts derived from it, we could simply boycott the whole industry entirely, which would eliminate all of the harms involved in it.
You seem to have made the exact fallacy that I’m describing in my post, as seen in the title.
did you try that? because it didn’t work.
how much veal do you think is made? how many pounds per calf? how many male calves are born a year? you’re just wrong.
“Veal is meat, but it’s actually a cruel co-product of the dairy industry. If you consume dairy products you’re actually supporting the veal industry, too.”
https://animalequality.org/blog/2019/08/14/dairy-industry-supports-veal-industry/
So, to my original point.
The veal industry is an unavoidable component of the dairy industry, as well as the slaughtering of cattle for beef, and a lot of other harmful practices to animals.
All of these practices are often justified (by some people) as a necessary component of dairy, while ignoring the fact that dairy itself isn’t necessary, so therefore none of the practices within it are, either.
Hence, justifying one thing as a necessary component of another unnecessary thing.
it’s not unavoidable. anyone could milk a cow without making veal.
I only wanted to point out some facts. I am not going on a tirade. your comments are longer than mine by orders of magnitude, and unable to stay focused on the only topic I mentioned in my first comment in this thread.
It’s a large topic that you opened up when I never intended for that. And you made some pretty long comments with wide-reaching implications as well. It takes a lot to debunk these claims, or explain why they’re specious in their reasoning and don’t invalidate the overall point.
do a word count
ok…
no, it’s not.
my first comment was acknowledging that it’s just an example.
It’s absolutely necessary to kill cattle for meat in the dairy industry. It would not be financially viable otherwise, and small-scale farms that try to avoid this practice can’t provide enough dairy to feed the human population if they’re consuming dairy; and they still involve other unavoidable cruelties inherent in taking the milk designed for calves, separating them and selectively breeding cows to overproduce milk, docking and debudding them, etc etc.
but if you disregard this arbitrary goal, then any particular dairy operation could, in fact, operate apart from the meat industry.
It’s not an arbitrary goal, because in order to provide dairy to everyone, these practices must happen (when we don’t need to provide dairy to everyone). I guess I could clarify that rather than it being a necessary component of dairy production to kill calves and cattle, for example, it’s a necessary component of dairy production on a scale to feed our planet, or even any significant human populations. For all intents and purposes as they apply to most people, and when considering the industry as a whole, these practices are necessary for dairy production, while dairy production itself isn’t necessary.
it is arbitrary: there is no reason to believe any particular dairy operation couldn’t keep it’s calves out of the veal industry.
milk isn’t designed except by humans through selective breeding, and that is designed for human use
Milk is actually designed! It’s super cool
design implies a designer.
Milk is actually made by cows for their calves, when they fall pregnant to one. Humans are exploiting the milk intended for the calves, by definition. And as a result, we forcefully impregnate those cows, too.
it’s not made by cows for anything. they dont have any volition in the process.
those are raw numbers. your scientific study doesn’t support the claim that you’re making.
I am the one who made the claim about the amount of cattle that become veal. I then supported it when you said that I was wrong. nothing you’ve provided actually contradicts what I have said or the data that I provided.