The thing I think is that Iran is indeed an authoritarian theocratic regime and killed 3000 people confirmed by themselves, but so is Israel. The problem is the ipocricy in the judgement of a nation that should before look at it self and get that it’s not better than others. But we all know this
Most of those were civilians and security forces (2427 out of 3117). The other numbers floating around seem completely made up by NGOs and western media so it’s hard to know if there are more dead rioters.
how many is too many?
I agree, that’s why we all should condemn the western sanctions that made the local currency collapse and led people to starvation and violence
How many western regime change operations that inevitably create magnitudes more casualties is too many? Because that’s the “solution” that’s being talked about, not some actual people’s government
I’m not sure I understand the question, if you mean whether I trust any numbers the answer is no, but the government numbers are a good minimum estimate.
If the question is whether I support the Iranian government uncritically, the answer is also no, but based on past history it’s still an extremely stupid idea to support an intervention.
I believe Iranians deserve a break from the illegal sanctions that keep them struggling, once they can breathe they’ll decide in their own terms if they wanna reform or overthrow their government or whatever else.
Palestine also.
Typical imperial core chauvinism. They know their governments are evil but still cling hard to the idea that they’re the best therefore every non western aligned country must be even more evil.
“If my country is evil while calling itself the leader of the free world, other countries must be super evil”
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TACO
I read this to the tune of Yakko’s World
can you post the latest Time Magazine cover and point out its pushing war propaganda again ? thank you
What was the lie about Ukraine?
Russia didn’t invade Ukraine?
There’s a few to choose from. Like the war started in 2022. Ukraine doesn’t have a nazi problem. Euromaidan didn’t have any western interference. Zelensky doesn’t have Epstein ties.
I know we like to spread misinformation online on this here .ml instance, but that might be too much even for you. Also, everyone knows that the war technicality started in 2014 when putin did the first invasion, I don’t even understand what kind of gotcha that might be
Which part of QinShiHuangsSchlong’s comment was misinformation? Can you articulate how and why? Further, the war started as a consequence of Donetsk and Luhansk seceding from Kiev into the Donetsk People’s Republic and Luhansk People’s Republic, following the far-right western-backed coup of Yanukovych. Once the Banderites took power and started oppressing ethnic Russians, the DPR and LPR seceded.
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The only people saying that are the clueless Americans. Everybody in Europe understands that the war started in 2014 when russia invaded Donbas, Luhansk, and Crimea.
But this is wrong, still. Crimea joined the Russian Federation, and Donetsk and Luhansk seceded, in response to the far-right Banderite coup.
Ukraine has as much of a Nazi problem as the US, France, Germany, Poland, or any other country on the planet. Sure, there definitely are Neo-Nazis there - like everywhere else. But the narrative was that the government was “overrun” by them, where in fact the most right-wing party received 6% in 2014 and less than 2% in 2019. Meaning, as of right now, there no fundamentalist right-wingers in the parliament, much less so in the government.
The Banderites were the ones that overthrew Yanukovych, and as a consequence have been emboldened by the state. The far-right governs Ukraine.
Define “western interference”.
People sending food and blankets to the protesters? Yeah, there was that.
Western governments silently supporting whoever opposed Yanukovych? Possibly, maybe. But those people weren’t really doing much.
CIA/Mossad inciting the streets to rebel against the government in an attempt to coup Yanukovych and install a pro-western ruler? Yeah, that one’s lunacy. Yanukovych got in power because he promised a more pro-western route in politics, the people wanted to be a part of the EU and NATO since 2001. Then, in 2013 things were starting to look really promising for Ukraine, and exactly then Putin ordered Yanukovych to reverse course, because he was afraid about his oil contracts. When Yanukovych did that, people went to the streets.
From @[email protected]
- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA151VA/
- Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW75J5bnnE | transcript
- Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup https://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/10/us-imperialism-and-the-ukraine-coup/
- Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made https://consortiumnews.com/2022/02/26/robert-parry-the-mess-that-nuland-made/
- Monthly Review Online, 2021: The Maidan massacre in Ukraine: revelations from trials and investigations https://mronline.org/2021/12/11/the-maidan-massacre-in-ukraine/
- Maidan coup thread https://archive.ph/BAxYc
- Coup details https://consortiumnews.com/2022/12/29/evidence-of-us-backed-coup-in-kiev/
- Don’t Get it Wrong: Ukraine and “Israel” are Both Tools of US-EU Imperialism
- An article from August 2021 advocating inflicting a military defeat on Russia in Ukraine to subjugate it and draw it away from China https://nationalinterest.org/feature/strategy-avoiding-two-front-war-192137
- An important piece that reveals Washington, via CIA paramilitaries, has been fighting a proxy war against Russia in the Donbas since, it’s implied, 2014. https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-secret-cia-training-program-in-ukraine-helped-kyiv-prepare-for-russian-invasion-090052743.html
- NYT coup coverage with CIA involvement https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html
- Nordstream US involvement evidence https://thegrayzone.com/2023/06/27/evidence-nord-stream-underwater-expedition/
- The US harvesting Ukraine for minerals https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-us-rare-earth-minerals-deal-8566241ea0e121a30437d845357055d8
None of the to-date released documents mention him as a guest or client of Epstein, so I don’t even know where is this coming from.
Kiev is a gangster state with immense corruption. I haven’t seen any direct Epstein ties, but it would be unsurprising.
The “secession” was made by russian troops illegally entering the sovereign territory of Ukraine. The “referendums” were made under threat of violence from armed russian soldiers.
The reality is that the war started because Ukrainians wanted to join the West, found oil and gas reserves and already had contracts with BP and Shell for extraction, all the while Moscow’s contracts were expiring in 2023.
Nah, this is bullshit. Yanukovych was very popular in the regions that seceded:
The Banderites wanted to move towards the imperialist west, but Yanukovych wanted to go with the Russian loan that didn’t require austerity politics and impoverishing Ukrainians even further. That’s why the west supported the coup.
That’s one of the most hilarious things I’ve read in a while :D
Laughter instead of responding isn’t a point.
Lol, you accuse Zelensky of being connected to Epstein but after providing exhausting links about Western involvement in Euromaiden (fine we helped, fuck Putin and his corrupt mafia regime, that is insanely well documented) you fail to provide a single link/email/document on Zelensky being linked to Epstein despite millions of Epstein files on the net.
Secondly you’ve not provided any proof that Zelensky is a “gangster” (a well known celebrity comedian, who some how forced Russia to invade Ukraine 4 years in 2014, before he even became president… Where do you dumb fucks get this shit from?)
Thirdly Russia had to invade and hold phony referendums in order to somehow prove eastern Ukraine didn’t want to become part of Europe.
Keep on making shit up you dumb ass.
Secondly you’ve not provided any proof that Zelensky is a “gangster”
I think Cowbee said “Kiev is a gangster state with immense corruption” which is a bit different.
For almost 2 years, people have been violently kidnapped from the streets, thanks to this totally non-gangster state, after they loosened the laws (which Zelensky signed, BTW). For example, here (violence warning!) is a yesterday video from Odessa. And we get video like this every day. It’s like ICE in US, but much worse because people can’t protest against it due to ongoing war.
And recently we had a ton of corruption scandals tied to Zelensky’s inner circle. You can just scroll below, someone already linked.
I never accused Zelensky of being connected to Epstein, that was another commenter. I haven’t seen the claim myself yet.
Secondly, the massive corruption scandals in Ukraine are reported even by the west, so I figured you’d have seen it.
Third, the Russian Federation assisted the LPR and DPR after they requested Russian assistance against Kiev, who had been shelling them for a decade.
Not making anything up.
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Iranian state tv gave an official death toll of 3117. from aljazeera, famously pro US outlet.
How many people have died in Iran as a consequence of western sanctions since their currency exchange value plummeted? Remember, EU+US sanctions murder HALF A MILLION PEOPLE YEARLY over the world.
ah yes. whataboutism.
It’s not whataboutism, the protests are literally created by western-manufactured poverty, the US has admitted as much. Remember that the sanctions on Cuba are justified with the following:
“to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government”. I’m quoting official US memos here.
It’d be whataboutism if it was unrelated or looking to downplay something, it’s very much related as you would have never had riots without the west sanctioning them and collapsing their currency. End the sanctions now if you care about Iranians.
Correct, there have been thousands of deaths, not the fantastical numbers in the 10s of thousands reported by Hasbara accounts and western media, and not the result of the IRGC one-sidedly slaughtering people en masse but intense riots and turmoil. Exaggerating tragedies and changing the nature of real events is exactly how western atrocity propaganda functions.
that’s still pretty damn far from the 30’000 that’s floating around in western media
yes it is, not saying it isn’t
I’d guess the real number is cliser to hrnwa which is around 10k
Why guess a number without better information?
“I’m more comfortable trusting the CIA funded outlets without any evidence, I am very impartial”
I’m no fan of American imperialism either but the regime in Iran is actively massacring their civilians on a scale never before seen during protests, I have Iranian friends and they know full well that America and Israel don’t have their best interests at heart, and yet they still want them to intervene because they don’t see any other way for change to happen. My Iranian friends don’t even really like Reza Pahlavi but he’s the most significant figure in these protests and so they’re supporting him purely in solidarity with the people.
It’s a very complicated and nuanced situation and it can’t really be reduced to a meme like this without losing important context.
You don’t need to know much about Iran at all to know for a fact that US intervention will make it worse, you just need to look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Palestine, and every other “repressive dictatorship liberated by US efforts” to see the consequences of invasion.
The protests in Iran are happening because people are literally dying due to impoverishment caused by western sanctions causing the local currency to implode. Focusing only on the government reaction during a period of military buildup Against Iran amounts to atrocity propaganda, however well-meaning your intentions are. It’s meant to create mixed feelings about the invasion amongst progressives “look at how dictatorial they are”
You’re absolutely right that I have mixed feelings and am conflicted, I would love to say with 100% confidence that “Iran is different” but I can’t.
Part of the protestors anger is impoverishment caused by sanctions, it was certainly a big factor in this protest and at least a minor factor in every other protest.
But conversely these protests are also fueled by discontent with the treatment of women.
They’re also fueled by the thirsty people who are suffering from poor water management policies that ignored traditional irrigation methods in favor of the western approach of spraying huge amounts into the air to grow water hungry crops in a famously water scarce region. Fuck even Israel was egging on the protestors with the promise of sending water experts once the regime is gone.
I’m not supporting America invading but I do think that there are real humanitarian issues that need to be addressed.
What upsets me most is not that the rest of the world is silent and only “brave and compassionate” America is speaking against them, its that the Iranian people only have America to turn to, that the only countries that are “on their side” (from the view of the public) are America and Israel.
This regime is so quick to label any unrest in the country as foreign meddling but they themselves are the cause for half of the problems.
(also thank you for engaging me in good faith)
Hahaha you’re literally doing the thing. Good stuff
“My Venezuelan friends are celebrating”
Imagine having a nuanced opinion? Crazy
Nuance is when your opinions about other countries always coincidentally and conveniently line up with what the US government wants. Very nuanced, you incredible free thinker you.
Nuanced, like celebrating civilians from your own country being bombed 🤓
How many countries do you have to destroy before you stop falling for regime change justifications?
Don’t misunderstand, I’m not American, I don’t support America, in my personal and professional life I’ve been making every reasonable effort to decouple my life from America (hence why I’m on Lemmy)
I didn’t even say that I support America invading.
The reality of Iran is that every few years since the 1979 revolution the people become discontent enough to start protesting, and every time the government harshly cracks down on those protests, and in both the process and the after math, many people are killed by the government for protesting. That’s an oversimplification but serves to illustrate my point.
My knowledge and understanding is based on my Iranian friends, who fled the country as refugees and left their friends and families behind, because of the oppressive government.
Those same friends do not like America, but they aren’t left with any other options but to support America. Not a day goes by that they don’t complain about the willful ignorance of the European Union and the world at large for being silent, only last week did the EU even decide to label the IRGC as a terrorist group.
The UN and international courts should be the ones trying to intervene and at the very least stop the regime killing tens of thousands of their own people.
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What a fantastic excuse not to try. It’s not that you’re blisteringly ignorant, it’s just that everyone around you is mentally defective.
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Amazing how every documented historical fact that’s inconvenient to the genocidal US narrative suddenly became Kremlin Propaganda overnight. Those evil Russians must have a crystal ball, because boy do they end up being correct a shitload of the time
I am more than happy to have a discussion, I’ve tried to outline my views and understanding of the situation in a clear and concise way and I invite any and all questions made in good faith.
My personal politics do not even remotely align with America, even on Iran I’m fully aware that America has only selfish intentions, and am appalled by it.
This is the first time in my adult life that I’ve even considered an invasion to be in any way beneficial (which would only be a by-product in this situation) But the Iranians around me are telling me their choices are either:
- get shot, arrested, executed by their own government
- or invite a foreign power who might give them a little more personal freedom while milking them dry of their oil and resources
Please tell me what you think the international community should be doing? After Russia it’s already the most sanctioned country in the world, and those sanctions have contributed to the discontent that fuels these protests.
This is the first time in my adult life that I’ve even considered an invasion to be in any way beneficial
Liberals oppose every war but the current one.
But the Iranians around me are telling me
They’re expats or n generations removed. They’re not in Iran, don’t know what’s really going on there and don’t speak for those who are and do.
Please tell me what you think the international community should be doing?
The international community:
After Russia it’s already the most sanctioned country in the world, and those sanctions have contributed to the discontent that fuels these protests.
Correct, and that’s exactly why the “international community” shouldn’t be imposing illegal sanctions in the first place. They’re not imposing collective punishment on the Iranian people out of the goodness of their hearts. They care about Iranians exactly as much as they care about Palestinians, namely: not a rat’s ass. Despite the bleeding heart rhetoric, the sanctions are for furthering imperialist interests, predominantly those of the US and Israel. They want regime change that vassalizes Iran.
Jeffrey Sachs: Engineering Iran’s Unrest
It’s certainly not diplomacy and it’s not coercion. It is war conducted by economic means, all designed to produce an economic crisis and social unrest leading to a fall of the government.
Thanks for applying your preconceived political label to me, very reductive. I don’t use American political labels like that and if you want to get an actual idea of my stance ask specific questions.
They’re not expats, they’re refugees that left as soon as they turned 18, and spent years living in Turkey with other Iranian refugees. It was the best place for them (more open socially but still easy for them to get to) to live until Erdogan started becoming more aggressive with deporting refugees and they had to leave Turkey too. Their parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc are still there and are in active contact. Thank you again for making a sweeping generalisation instead of asking a question or even reading my other comments.
You’re right that sanctions are a form of economic warfare, totally agree that it only truly hurts the people. But tell me this, can economic prosperity translate into a better life for the people when women are beaten and abducted on the street by the government funded morality police? When by law a womans life is worth half that of a man? When a man can exploit that to get away with murder by killing a woman from a poor family that can’t afford to pay for him to be punished and are forced to accept compensation payment from him? When all women are legally owned by their fathers and husbands?
This most recent round of protests was sparked by economic woes yes, but what about the Green Movement? What about the Mahsa Amini protests? Mahsa Amini especially you should be aware of, it was only 3-4 years ago that millions across the country were furious about her death in police custody for not adhering to mandatory hijab rules. And yes, after protesting for months, after hundreds died and thousands were arrested, and multiple individuals were executed, the government graciously relaxed the hijab rules. If you’re from the west looking in that story ends in a nice little neat package. If you’re a woman in Iran then that brief whiff of freedom doesn’t last long, and slowly but surely that freedom is gradually eroded until you’re back where you were before the protests. The only existing remnant of that is the fact women in rich parts of the cities wont be immediately abducted by the morality police for having a little hair on display.
Please to anyone else replying, approach me with enough respect to read my paragraphs before deciding who I am and what I think.
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