I was thinking about this and their thinking was way too complicated. The symbol you need is bones. Bones are always associated with death and decay because after death, bones are the thing that’s left.
And yes I know they thought of it but I think their dismissal of it is wrong. Their counter argument that it was once a symbol of something else by some culture, therefore. But again by its very nature it’s associated with death. Any society capable of this excavation is also capable of thinking “hmm what did they mean? outside of our own culture of course” and will quickly figure out it’s bad.
This is funny because it’s a symbol of bones, not actual bones. You know laser etched onto a platinum disc (or whatever other alloy that doesn’t degrade) along with other signals that death is what will happen to you if you dig there. Any civilizaiton capable of that kind of excavation will be capable of figuring out “This is a symbol conveying a message. The message is death, not marking a juicy graveyard”.
And just like the other guy, I think your fear is more likely with these other ominiuos-but-doesn’t-tell-you-why markings (if the language is lost). They see all those random spikes and will think “holy shit this is the mother of all sites”.
But of course everyone else wanted to over-engineer it, so you get proposed solutions like encoding messages in the DNA of plants, and color-changing cats with an accompanying viral song that no one’s ever heard of twelve years later… 🤦♀️
Like, guys, if people today can’t even figure out what it means, then it’s not a universal and enduring message.
And then some of the suggestions would only serve to make it a glaringly obvious archaeological dig site.
Skull and crossbones is about as universal as you can get. Maybe some atomic diagrams and radiation symbols, and written warnings in as many languages as possible, just in case people still understand them. And a giant slab that someone could only drill through deliberately, requiring heavy equipment.
I can’t believe these were supposedly some of the smartest people in the world, and yet they made the mistakes of assuming that future civilizations would be hyperintelligent and thoroughly inquisitive, while also not understanding any symbols from our era and being likely to avoid areas designed to seem ominous. As if egyptologists today respect the warnings on ancient tombs.
And yet they overlooked the skull and crossbones because it seemed too obvious. The whole point is that it’s supposed to be obvious!!!
Atomic diagrams would be good for advanced societies, but societies in the bronze age or middle age advancment are the ones that we have to worry about. They won’t understand atomic phyiscs but they are capable of excavation. Any fancy symbols might just intrigue them.
I think they underestimated the intelligence of possible future societies. Any society advanced enough to excavate this will be intelligent enough to ask “what does this symbol logically mean”. They won’t be limited to the ‘bad-vibes’ that the current ideas are heavy on (language aside).
Then I guess I just don’t understand your point. Obviously they’d assume a “middle age or prior” society when coming up with solutions to “how can we make sure a middle ages or prior society understands the danger of nuclear material”.
But that’s following the assumption that a society far into the future will be at the level of advancement of a middle-age society or prior. It’s not universal if anyone from a modern or post-modern level of advancement would look at it and think “that’s just primitive superstition.”
A skull and crossbones is a pretty universal symbol of death. As long as a future society is humanoid, or at least familiar with humanoids, they can see that and recognize what it means, regardless of their level of advancement.
Some mythology that speaks of ancient ancestors who created magical rocks that can melt your flesh off at a distance so that they could turn the daylight on inside isn’t likely to deter anyone but the most gullible and least inquisitive.
It also assumes that such a made-up religion would survive longer than any extant languages and scientific knowledge, which is absurd.
You do understand that a modern or post-modern society will have their own tools to detect radiation? We don’t need to optimize for them, we need to optimize for those people who haven’t developed that far.
A skull and crossbones is a pretty universal symbol of death.
Oh yeah? Have you seen any research demonstrating that people unfamiliar with that iconography associate it universally with death? Or are you assuming they would, since you’ve seen it associated with death your whole life due to pirate media etc?
Your solution is barely above “why don’t they just write NUCLEAR STUFF, DANGER?”
Some mythology that speaks of ancient ancestors who created magical rocks that can melt your flesh off at a distance so that they could turn the daylight on inside isn’t likely to deter anyone but the most gullible and least inquisitive.
Yeah, not like millions of people have been following such rules for thousands of years. Much better to use iconography they probably won’t know or understand.
It also assumes that such a made-up religion would survive longer than any extant languages and scientific knowledge, which is absurd.
We LITERALLY have religions that survived their languages & scientific knowledge dying off, and most of our modern religious ideas are simply remixes of previous ones. You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried.
The symbol you need is bones. Bones are always associated with death and decay because after death, bones are the thing that’s left.
I think the only way to get it taken seriously is to include depictions of the site and depictions of what radiation sickness looks like.
Make like a 100 page comic that starts with someone opening a cask and removing a fuel element, then dying days later, the element leaving contamination, which kills someone else months later, causes birth defects, etc until it’s returned.
You’re not going to scare a society into never investigating something, but you might be able to convince them to put it back and bury it again after they realize the predictions are accurate.
Take a skull-and-crossbones. It might be taken to mean danger or poison. Or it might be taken to mean pirates or treasure. And if the future explorers did connect it with danger or poison, why wouldn’t they also just think it was maybe a superstition meant to keep outsiders from getting “the good stuff,” like the curses that were sealed into ancient Egyptian tombs?
What about when the time of Mammals is done, and the next inhabitant has a chitinous exoskeleton? I’m not sure they’d recognize bones as a sign of this place being dangerous.
If I know there was a message a more advanced civilization was trying to tell me, fucking yes that’s the logical conclusion.
With other random symbols like spikes, who the fuck knows what they’re trying to say. Guess they were spike worshippers. How long have we been trying to figure out what the Easter island heads mean? Weird symbols don’t work. Something innately tired to death, like bones, works as a symbol and a message.
I was thinking about this and their thinking was way too complicated. The symbol you need is bones. Bones are always associated with death and decay because after death, bones are the thing that’s left.
And yes I know they thought of it but I think their dismissal of it is wrong. Their counter argument that it was once a symbol of something else by some culture, therefore. But again by its very nature it’s associated with death. Any society capable of this excavation is also capable of thinking “hmm what did they mean? outside of our own culture of course” and will quickly figure out it’s bad.
The number one site archeologists are interested in is a graveyard. Because it tells you a lot about the people buried there.
This is funny because it’s a symbol of bones, not actual bones. You know laser etched onto a platinum disc (or whatever other alloy that doesn’t degrade) along with other signals that death is what will happen to you if you dig there. Any civilizaiton capable of that kind of excavation will be capable of figuring out “This is a symbol conveying a message. The message is death, not marking a juicy graveyard”.
And just like the other guy, I think your fear is more likely with these other ominiuos-but-doesn’t-tell-you-why markings (if the language is lost). They see all those random spikes and will think “holy shit this is the mother of all sites”.
Yeah, Carl Sagan was like “skull and crossbones”
But of course everyone else wanted to over-engineer it, so you get proposed solutions like encoding messages in the DNA of plants, and color-changing cats with an accompanying viral song that no one’s ever heard of twelve years later… 🤦♀️
Like, guys, if people today can’t even figure out what it means, then it’s not a universal and enduring message.
And then some of the suggestions would only serve to make it a glaringly obvious archaeological dig site.
Skull and crossbones is about as universal as you can get. Maybe some atomic diagrams and radiation symbols, and written warnings in as many languages as possible, just in case people still understand them. And a giant slab that someone could only drill through deliberately, requiring heavy equipment.
I can’t believe these were supposedly some of the smartest people in the world, and yet they made the mistakes of assuming that future civilizations would be hyperintelligent and thoroughly inquisitive, while also not understanding any symbols from our era and being likely to avoid areas designed to seem ominous. As if egyptologists today respect the warnings on ancient tombs.
And yet they overlooked the skull and crossbones because it seemed too obvious. The whole point is that it’s supposed to be obvious!!!
Atomic diagrams would be good for advanced societies, but societies in the bronze age or middle age advancment are the ones that we have to worry about. They won’t understand atomic phyiscs but they are capable of excavation. Any fancy symbols might just intrigue them.
I think they underestimated the intelligence of possible future societies. Any society advanced enough to excavate this will be intelligent enough to ask “what does this symbol logically mean”. They won’t be limited to the ‘bad-vibes’ that the current ideas are heavy on (language aside).
They were really counting on a middle-age level of advancement when they suggested making a new religion with a priesthood and its own mythology…
Hm? All those things existed long before the middle ages. They even existed in prehistory.
Okay, so I should have said “middle age or prior.” Would that be better?
I mainly said middle ages since they compared the idea to the catholic church, but I understand the analogy could apply to other religions
Then I guess I just don’t understand your point. Obviously they’d assume a “middle age or prior” society when coming up with solutions to “how can we make sure a middle ages or prior society understands the danger of nuclear material”.
But that’s following the assumption that a society far into the future will be at the level of advancement of a middle-age society or prior. It’s not universal if anyone from a modern or post-modern level of advancement would look at it and think “that’s just primitive superstition.”
A skull and crossbones is a pretty universal symbol of death. As long as a future society is humanoid, or at least familiar with humanoids, they can see that and recognize what it means, regardless of their level of advancement.
Some mythology that speaks of ancient ancestors who created magical rocks that can melt your flesh off at a distance so that they could turn the daylight on inside isn’t likely to deter anyone but the most gullible and least inquisitive.
It also assumes that such a made-up religion would survive longer than any extant languages and scientific knowledge, which is absurd.
You do understand that a modern or post-modern society will have their own tools to detect radiation? We don’t need to optimize for them, we need to optimize for those people who haven’t developed that far.
Oh yeah? Have you seen any research demonstrating that people unfamiliar with that iconography associate it universally with death? Or are you assuming they would, since you’ve seen it associated with death your whole life due to pirate media etc?
Your solution is barely above “why don’t they just write NUCLEAR STUFF, DANGER?”
Yeah, not like millions of people have been following such rules for thousands of years. Much better to use iconography they probably won’t know or understand.
We LITERALLY have religions that survived their languages & scientific knowledge dying off, and most of our modern religious ideas are simply remixes of previous ones. You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried.
I think the only way to get it taken seriously is to include depictions of the site and depictions of what radiation sickness looks like.
Make like a 100 page comic that starts with someone opening a cask and removing a fuel element, then dying days later, the element leaving contamination, which kills someone else months later, causes birth defects, etc until it’s returned.
You’re not going to scare a society into never investigating something, but you might be able to convince them to put it back and bury it again after they realize the predictions are accurate.
And what exactly do you make the comic book out of?
Because “pages” denotes paper and paper will disintegrate long before this place becomes safe
You carve it into the walls. Make the walls out of quartz or something that’s not materialy valuble, but very hard to destroy and impossible to steal.
Take a skull-and-crossbones. It might be taken to mean danger or poison. Or it might be taken to mean pirates or treasure. And if the future explorers did connect it with danger or poison, why wouldn’t they also just think it was maybe a superstition meant to keep outsiders from getting “the good stuff,” like the curses that were sealed into ancient Egyptian tombs?
Why did pirates use it? Because it’s “give us your shit or you die.” Aka it was a symbol of death.
I think your fear is more likely with the current ominous but doesn’t tell you why message (if the language part is lost).
Yeah, a future civilization finds a field covered in spikes. “I wonder what that’s guarding. Must be something good!”
Literally happens today.
Look at the tombs of Egypt. Did any of the warnings stop us?
Exactly…
What about when the time of Mammals is done, and the next inhabitant has a chitinous exoskeleton? I’m not sure they’d recognize bones as a sign of this place being dangerous.
That’s just bones of a different nature. Any society capable of large excavation will quickly figure it out.
Technically yes, but in the context of symbols (which is what this is about) it doesn’t work.
If you stumbled upon a sign with a bug exoskeleton, you’d think “ah yes, this means death”?
If I know there was a message a more advanced civilization was trying to tell me, fucking yes that’s the logical conclusion.
With other random symbols like spikes, who the fuck knows what they’re trying to say. Guess they were spike worshippers. How long have we been trying to figure out what the Easter island heads mean? Weird symbols don’t work. Something innately tired to death, like bones, works as a symbol and a message.
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There was a conference about this and Carl Sagan was invited, but couldn’t come. He sent a letter suggesting to do just that - skull and bones symbol.