In a true emergency? Yes, HAM is the way to go and I need to get around to buying one of those super sketchy Baofengs. In theory you can configure them to use without a license (which is also on the todo list) but it is super easy to tick into the licensed use. How much people will care will mostly depend on whether your local HAM folk are narcs. But, regardless, all bets are off in a true emergency and Baofengs are dirt cheap.
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
And anyone thinking of using any of that for stuff the government don’t want you to: You are an idiot and you need to learn about how insecure all of those are.
Keep in mind that without working repeaters, the baofeng will only have a range of a few miles on level ground with nothing in the way. If the power goes out, most of the repeaters will go down too. Some have battery backups that may last a few hours to a few days. Depending on where you are, a few may be solar powered, but heavy use will drain the batteries. Some repeaters are also reliant on the internet for linking to increase the coverage area.
What you really want in that case is a portable HF radio and a wire antenna you can string up over a tree branch or a support with a fishing pole. In the daytime, you can use the upper HF bands for long distance communication. That has a range of thousands of miles, but nearby stations won’t be able to hear you if they are beyond line of sight. Since the portable radio doesn’t have much power, you may need to use digital modes to get through. For more local contacts you can use NVIS propagation on the lower HF bands. That has a range of several hundred miles and can even be used to talk to someone on the other side of a mountain. Even 5 watts and an antenna strung 3 feet off the ground can work for voice contacts out to over a hundred miles.
Since the portable radio doesn’t have much power, you may need to use digital modes to get through.
I don’t know much about radio stuff, but ever since I learned about LoRA I’ve wondered what kind of range a station could get if the longwave or AM bands were repurposed for use with a spread spectrum digital protocol. And what kind of bandwidth something like that would have.
I think being able to do datacasting over really long ranges would be useful, so, for example, you could send emergency alerts to people even if the local cell infrastructure was down. But with the way things are headed I guess that role will be taken up by satellites.
If you are in a situation where you need help, the odds of someone (even the person you have been talking to for weeks on the radio) doing a day or two journey to MAYBE be able to reach you is pretty slim. And such long distance communication has other implications for bad actors.
And in the event of “rebuilding” some kind of community, you aren’t going to be using a handheld device at all. You’ll raid… I don’t even know what at this point (I miss Radio Shack) to install a radio on the tallest building you can find. Oh, a HAM Radio Nerd’s house. That’ll work.
Whereas if you are trying to communicat4e with others and signal for rescue? Whatever you can get from walking up a hill/mountain or climbing the stairs to said tall building with your handheld is probably about what you can expect.
Same with in stuff like hurricanes and the like. If you are in a region that is at all hospitable then the relief teams know to send helicopters/people to that area. And if you are in the kind of situation where even a few hours might mean the difference between life and death… odds are nobody is coming.
The four repeaters in my area are run by one club. They do the Field Day exercise every year and from what I remember they run them around 150w per repeater. A small jenny could run those fuckers on 15gal a day fairly easily. In a huge emergency, though, you can relay morse on just 5w through 5 or less relaying techs to most of the world without repeaters at all. (1 if you’re lucky, but I’m being fair to real life interference).
Out of curiosity: where do you live where listening on ham requires a license?
In the US and other countries I am aware of, listening is allowed without a license (how would one even enforce such a thing?). In fact, you can even transmit on a ham radio in the US without a license provided there is an immediate risk to life or property.
Early evening in the western hemisphere, OP posted a large sum of perfectly native fluency English, so yeah, I’ll assume US or Canada. Can’t have a conversation without making reasonable assumptions. But please, feel free to add to the conversation, where do some of these exceptions exist? Don’t just “um, actually” the conversation, add to it!
You legally need a license for HAM in the US, but there’s nothing really preventing anyone from configuring a radio to licensed frequencies. As for HAMs reporting you, if it’s an emergency the FCC rarely fines anyone if it’s for medical or safety concerns, were any amateurs to even report you. The whole reason for the Tech license for example is just to know laws and rules for operation. It’s damn easy, too. License exam was $25 a few years back, 8 year term. All the questions and answers are avilable online, they just pull (35? I think) from the pool of 400. Most is pretty basic rules of common sense and civility, a few laws. Most tech questions are just converting frequencies and basic math. They don’t require morse anymore (Thank god, or I’d never pass). And if you pass the Tech, you can go right back in for free to try the next exam level. I never use mine, but I do have an HT I keep charged in case of emergencies.
I think many people are unaware that you don’t need Morse anymore tbh. This makes the license extremely easy to get, but the knowledge you can get from ham radio is off the charts.
FYI, it’s not HAM (not an acronym)-- just ham. Named because the people fucking around with radios were “hamming it up”, back in the day.
What about more extreme cases, say Castaway (movie) type situation. Stranded on an island in middle of nowhere.
But conveniently, one of the packaged has a functional 2m battery powered radio and a Yagi too. There’s no one you can make contact with, except… the ISS.
What if the ISS was the only station you could contact?
“Hello International Space Station, I am stranded on an island after a plane crash. Can you help?”
One of the coolest things in my opinion about radio is the ability to skip off the upper atmosphere and bounce a signal back down halfway across the globe. You can also bounce a signal off the moon.
Licensing means nothing in an emergency situation. I never understand why it is even mentioned in these arguments. In fact, even if the world isn’t ending, you can ALWAYS use a ham radio in an emergency with or without a license (defined by the FCC as immediate dangers to life or property).
More importantly, there are at least an order of magnitude more ham radios out there than mesh devices. It isn’t even close. If the world ends, find a ham radio. Ideally you will know what to do with it when the time comes.
I wish this energy was just put towards promoting ham, tbh.
Maybe you’d understand more things if you continued to read after the first opportunity you see to spew whatever you want to?
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
I’ll also add on that it is useful to be able to practice and get familiar with a tool without risking a fine.
I wish this energy was just put towards promoting ham, tbh.
I wish you put more energy towards reading the comments you are replying to
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
Disagree. Ham is better here, for the reasons I already mentioned.
I’ll also add on that it is useful to be able to practice and get familiar with a tool without risking a fine.
You don’t risk a fine if you get the license first. The test is not difficult and costs something like $10.
I wish you put more energy towards reading the comments you are replying to
I put in the appropriate amount of energy for the quality of the comment (and the rudeness of the response – be better).
Got it. Nobody should consider the need for a license because, in an emergency, you don’t need one. But also get a license so that you can use it in non-emergencies otherwise you’ll get a fine.
I’ve been thinking about ordering some but I’m getting some analysis paralysis just looking through the options, any recommendations on a cheap unit I can hand out to some friends, I dunno if I truly need solar, but I guess it’s not a bad option
Yeah all they would need is a small RTLSDR and they make them directional for police and such. Its how they get people interfering with police/fire/etc…etc… on different channels. At 1W or lower its going to be a bit hard to find, but anyone determined would be able to triangulate pretty quick.
HAM will work best for long distance communication but does not have enough capacity to support local short messaging for any major population sizes. Mesh networks scale in bandwidth and will not be overwhelmed as easily if tens of thousands of people suddenly hop on it at the same time.
I think the point is to keep in contact with friends and family. Maybe it would be used to blast news or alerts in a time of war idk yet, I just ordered some radios a few days ago and I am waiting to get started with it.
I never could really get ahold of anyone to talk to, most Elmers in my area died. So I just use the license as an emergency line. Talked a few times on my HT, but most HAMs in my area use their cell phones nowadays.
Every year I see more on the map. Have a solar node, good fun.
Ever useful? I doubt it, HAM would dominate in a collapse.
In a true emergency? Yes, HAM is the way to go and I need to get around to buying one of those super sketchy Baofengs. In theory you can configure them to use without a license (which is also on the todo list) but it is super easy to tick into the licensed use. How much people will care will mostly depend on whether your local HAM folk are narcs. But, regardless, all bets are off in a true emergency and Baofengs are dirt cheap.
But in a “the internet is out” situation? Or even a “please evacuate in a calm and orderly fashion” for a wildfire or a bad hurricane? That is where meshtastic (et al) shine and it is well worth convincing friends to pick up a t-deck or whatever. Excellent for the “is it out for everyone or just me?” checks. Also useful for letting people know which field can see a cell tower a county or two over for emergency communication or to even coordinate whether you are all gonna head North or South to hang out for (hopefully just) a few days.
And anyone thinking of using any of that for stuff the government don’t want you to: You are an idiot and you need to learn about how insecure all of those are.
Keep in mind that without working repeaters, the baofeng will only have a range of a few miles on level ground with nothing in the way. If the power goes out, most of the repeaters will go down too. Some have battery backups that may last a few hours to a few days. Depending on where you are, a few may be solar powered, but heavy use will drain the batteries. Some repeaters are also reliant on the internet for linking to increase the coverage area.
What you really want in that case is a portable HF radio and a wire antenna you can string up over a tree branch or a support with a fishing pole. In the daytime, you can use the upper HF bands for long distance communication. That has a range of thousands of miles, but nearby stations won’t be able to hear you if they are beyond line of sight. Since the portable radio doesn’t have much power, you may need to use digital modes to get through. For more local contacts you can use NVIS propagation on the lower HF bands. That has a range of several hundred miles and can even be used to talk to someone on the other side of a mountain. Even 5 watts and an antenna strung 3 feet off the ground can work for voice contacts out to over a hundred miles.
I don’t know much about radio stuff, but ever since I learned about LoRA I’ve wondered what kind of range a station could get if the longwave or AM bands were repurposed for use with a spread spectrum digital protocol. And what kind of bandwidth something like that would have.
I think being able to do datacasting over really long ranges would be useful, so, for example, you could send emergency alerts to people even if the local cell infrastructure was down. But with the way things are headed I guess that role will be taken up by satellites.
Yeah… if I am trying to reach people tens of miles away during The Apocalypse, I am already dead.
Anyone who is within range to be helpful (or… not) would generally be within signal range of a handheld.
HF handhelds do exist. Do they have the range of a dedicated HF rig? No. Better than a Baofeng? Yes, and they’re about $10 more.
What about after surviving the initial disaster? During the rebuilding? Or the ongoing survival?
Long-distance radios are useful as hell in stuff like The Last of Us.
If you are in a situation where you need help, the odds of someone (even the person you have been talking to for weeks on the radio) doing a day or two journey to MAYBE be able to reach you is pretty slim. And such long distance communication has other implications for bad actors.
And in the event of “rebuilding” some kind of community, you aren’t going to be using a handheld device at all. You’ll raid… I don’t even know what at this point (I miss Radio Shack) to install a radio on the tallest building you can find. Oh, a HAM Radio Nerd’s house. That’ll work.
Whereas if you are trying to communicat4e with others and signal for rescue? Whatever you can get from walking up a hill/mountain or climbing the stairs to said tall building with your handheld is probably about what you can expect.
Same with in stuff like hurricanes and the like. If you are in a region that is at all hospitable then the relief teams know to send helicopters/people to that area. And if you are in the kind of situation where even a few hours might mean the difference between life and death… odds are nobody is coming.
The four repeaters in my area are run by one club. They do the Field Day exercise every year and from what I remember they run them around 150w per repeater. A small jenny could run those fuckers on 15gal a day fairly easily. In a huge emergency, though, you can relay morse on just 5w through 5 or less relaying techs to most of the world without repeaters at all. (1 if you’re lucky, but I’m being fair to real life interference).
You just can’t legally transmit without a license. You can own a ham radio and listen all you want.
Perhaps where you live.
Internet 101: Laws aren’t the same everywhere.
Out of curiosity: where do you live where listening on ham requires a license?
In the US and other countries I am aware of, listening is allowed without a license (how would one even enforce such a thing?). In fact, you can even transmit on a ham radio in the US without a license provided there is an immediate risk to life or property.
Early evening in the western hemisphere, OP posted a large sum of perfectly native fluency English, so yeah, I’ll assume US or Canada. Can’t have a conversation without making reasonable assumptions. But please, feel free to add to the conversation, where do some of these exceptions exist? Don’t just “um, actually” the conversation, add to it!
yes they are
You legally need a license for HAM in the US, but there’s nothing really preventing anyone from configuring a radio to licensed frequencies. As for HAMs reporting you, if it’s an emergency the FCC rarely fines anyone if it’s for medical or safety concerns, were any amateurs to even report you. The whole reason for the Tech license for example is just to know laws and rules for operation. It’s damn easy, too. License exam was $25 a few years back, 8 year term. All the questions and answers are avilable online, they just pull (35? I think) from the pool of 400. Most is pretty basic rules of common sense and civility, a few laws. Most tech questions are just converting frequencies and basic math. They don’t require morse anymore (Thank god, or I’d never pass). And if you pass the Tech, you can go right back in for free to try the next exam level. I never use mine, but I do have an HT I keep charged in case of emergencies.
I think many people are unaware that you don’t need Morse anymore tbh. This makes the license extremely easy to get, but the knowledge you can get from ham radio is off the charts.
FYI, it’s not HAM (not an acronym)-- just ham. Named because the people fucking around with radios were “hamming it up”, back in the day.
What about more extreme cases, say Castaway (movie) type situation. Stranded on an island in middle of nowhere.
But conveniently, one of the packaged has a functional 2m battery powered radio and a Yagi too. There’s no one you can make contact with, except… the ISS.
What if the ISS was the only station you could contact?
“Hello International Space Station, I am stranded on an island after a plane crash. Can you help?”
One of the coolest things in my opinion about radio is the ability to skip off the upper atmosphere and bounce a signal back down halfway across the globe. You can also bounce a signal off the moon.
No wonder they’re insecure with you calling them idiots all the time.
🫣
Licensing means nothing in an emergency situation. I never understand why it is even mentioned in these arguments. In fact, even if the world isn’t ending, you can ALWAYS use a ham radio in an emergency with or without a license (defined by the FCC as immediate dangers to life or property).
More importantly, there are at least an order of magnitude more ham radios out there than mesh devices. It isn’t even close. If the world ends, find a ham radio. Ideally you will know what to do with it when the time comes.
I wish this energy was just put towards promoting ham, tbh.
Maybe you’d understand more things if you continued to read after the first opportunity you see to spew whatever you want to?
I’ll also add on that it is useful to be able to practice and get familiar with a tool without risking a fine.
I wish you put more energy towards reading the comments you are replying to
Disagree. Ham is better here, for the reasons I already mentioned.
You don’t risk a fine if you get the license first. The test is not difficult and costs something like $10.
I put in the appropriate amount of energy for the quality of the comment (and the rudeness of the response – be better).
Got it. Nobody should consider the need for a license because, in an emergency, you don’t need one. But also get a license so that you can use it in non-emergencies otherwise you’ll get a fine.
Good talk.
I’ve been thinking about ordering some but I’m getting some analysis paralysis just looking through the options, any recommendations on a cheap unit I can hand out to some friends, I dunno if I truly need solar, but I guess it’s not a bad option
They sell 2 helteks so you can play around with them for about 50$. Used to be around 30. I have a couple, they do decently well.
I guess here the topic is more of insurrections, like what’s happening in Iran right now or how it went on in HK
How fast could a group of 5 people that want to remove all nodes in the area need to do so? Are they all listed on a map with their location?
Mine is on a map, but in a radius of around 10 miles. Close enough to let people know I’m here, but not accurate enough to easily track me down.
That said, if someone wanted to hunt me down, they certainly could triangulate me pretty quickly.
Yeah all they would need is a small RTLSDR and they make them directional for police and such. Its how they get people interfering with police/fire/etc…etc… on different channels. At 1W or lower its going to be a bit hard to find, but anyone determined would be able to triangulate pretty quick.
HAM will work best for long distance communication but does not have enough capacity to support local short messaging for any major population sizes. Mesh networks scale in bandwidth and will not be overwhelmed as easily if tens of thousands of people suddenly hop on it at the same time.
I think that Starlink covers a lot of disaster scenarios.
Assuming Elon isn’t part of it or doesn’t restrict usage
Free Starlink during disasters for everyone, but for
surveilencechild protection and anti-terrorism you must accept X as a Certificate Authority.Starlink and the number of satellites we’ve got up there could absolutely cause a chain reaction if a few too many were destroyed.
Haha I didn’t mean that kind of disaster. But yes star link has the potential to wipe out a lot of LEO until the debris orbits all decay
Is it meshtastic? I’m pleasantly surprised by how much it’s grown around me in just a year
It’s cool yes. But my wonder is if it will be on anyone’s mind when things go south.
In a lawless world, could you trust anyone that said hello back?
I think the point is to keep in contact with friends and family. Maybe it would be used to blast news or alerts in a time of war idk yet, I just ordered some radios a few days ago and I am waiting to get started with it.
Yeah I’m thinking for flooding and generalized chaos but not a direct emergency.
No idea about an appocalypse situation, I don’t have solar so all my gadgets are going down anyway. And not that many solar nodes around me
Yep its a fun hobby though!
I never could really get ahold of anyone to talk to, most Elmers in my area died. So I just use the license as an emergency line. Talked a few times on my HT, but most HAMs in my area use their cell phones nowadays.
how do i make it go?
Check out the Quickstart: https://rootaccess.org/wiki/Meshtastic/
There are others but this is from a local makerspace and I have personally done this setup. It works well, as long as there is a node in a high place.
Honestly though its a hobby not something that can be relied on unless your whole community gets together. Hope you have fun!
thanks amigo