It sounds like a lot of people had issues with you for imposing your beliefs and limitations on a child who was too young to consent.
Malnutrition is a very real risk for someone who doesn’t consume meat. It’s very hard to eat enough protein, especially for a growing child. That makes malnutrition a very real risk- your child may not grow as strong or as tall or as healthy as they may have without your restrictions.
Malnutrition is not a risk, vegan’s have less deficiencies on average.
Vegans grow up stronger, taller, and healthier.
Carnists imposing their beliefs on kids and making them eat animals causes tangible negative health outcomes, accelerates the destruction of our planet, is and is ethically vile.
Ridiculously false. All dietary groups have risks of nutrient deficiencies that need to be taken into account. Every diet needs proper planning, or do you actually think the standard western dino nuggets, frozen fries, mac and cheese, and fast food burgers, that too many parents default to, doesn’t pose a nutrient deficiency risk? From the linked systematic review:
We conclude that there are dietary inadequacies in all dietary groups. In people following self-selected plant-based diets, especially vegan diets, intake, and status of certain nutrients is lower compared to meat-containing diets, with an increased risk of inadequacy for vitamin B12, vitamin D, EPA, DHA, calcium, iron (particularly in women), zinc and iodine. Of these nutrients, also meat-eaters were found to be at risk of inadequate vitamin D and calcium intake. On the other hand, people following plant-based diets, particularly vegan diets, had higher intakes of PUFA, ALA, fiber, folate, vitamin E and magnesium, which were found to be at risk of inadequacy among meat-eaters. Additionally, the intake of vitamin B1, B6 and C was considerably higher, especially in vegans.
Our results show the need for additional public health strategies to help consumers transitioning to a more nutritionally balanced and sustainable diet by education on diverse nutrient-dense plant foods, food fortification and possibly supplementation.
And here are a collection of statements from leading nutrition authorities from several countries. Just one for example:
It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage.
Of any nutrient that vegans might be at risk of deficiency of, protein is virtually never one of them. It is entirely feasible, easy even, to get more than enough protein on a plant-based diet - even for people who do strength training. From Christopher Gardner, who specializes on the subject:
Does it matter if you get your protein by consuming plants or meat?
Gardner: In terms of meeting your protein requirement, it really doesn’t. Protein contains the same 20 amino acids, regardless of where it comes from. It isn’t the amount of protein consumed as much as the proportions of amino acids, which make up proteins, that matter most. Meat and animal products have amino acid proportions that align perfectly with human needs. Plants aren’t aligned as perfectly, but they’re really close - so much so that it doesn’t matter if there isn’t any meat in your diet. You can still get the needed proportions of amino acids from plants. A lot of people think that plants don’t have enough total protein to meet human requirements. But the truth is vegetarians and vegans usually meet and exceed their protein requirement as long as they’re eating a reasonable variety of foods.
Now let’s talk about this idea of “imposing beliefs on your child.” In the first place, what a ridiculous notion, every parent imposes their beliefs on their children. What’s relevant is whose beliefs are better, which ones cause less harm. You speak of informed consent; then given how often children react with shock and sadness when they find out meat comes from animals, doesn’t it make sense to at least wait until they’re old enough to comprehend where their food comes from, and everything that happens to animals before feeding them products that come from animals? Would you feel comfortable showing your child a documentary like Dominion?
And going back to the point about health, I already established that plant-based diets are entirely adequate for all stages of life, including pregnancy and childhood. What about the typical western diets? Heart disease can start as early as the womb, and often does start as early as childhood. Plant-based diets generally don’t have that problem.
As long as a parent is taking basic steps to enure adequate nutrition, vegan diets for kids are a great choice with lots of benefits. It’s the typical western diet that is abusive.
Well, I mean, first of all it is my job as a parent to “impose my beliefs and limitations” onto my child. We pretend it’s not, but it is in everything I tell my children.
And then
Malnutrition is a very real risk for someone who doesn’t consume meat
No, it’s not. It can be for vegans. But just not eating meat (aka vegetarian) has no malnutrition risk.
Depends on which diet you come from. For having a “standard, western, unhealthy diet” changing nothing but avoiding meat: you have no challenges.
When you take the same diet and substitute all animal products, you could run into issues. Depends on where you’re coming from with your previous diet. Especially true for growing children. But it’s certainly doable, but more effort then just vegetarian.
Vegan milks, meats, etc are fortified with everything hard to get and most macro levels
are naive and based on studies performed on the general population/omnivores. It’s actually harder as a vegetarian as you don’t get the metabolic pathway benefits like the improved omega6 conversion. This is why you don’t get actual negative outcomes shown for low levels of certain nutrients in vegans.
It’s effortless unless you’ve got a selective eating disorder. Just chuck some flax and nooch in sauces and you’re good to go.
Vegetarian: do everything the same, just don’t put meat in your dishes
Vegan: your whole paragraph.
You need to find substitutes for milk to benefit of the additives and need to try out. Took me a long time to find a milk substitute I like. Soy based stuff can cover for Calcium, but soy based stuff is rare in a lot of western diets, so you need to experiment.
That’s my whole point. Certainly it is doable, but not as plug and play as a vegetarian diet. And, when you don’t try the stuff mentioned in your paragraph and mine, you might run into issues, especially with children. That’s what I am saying, that’s a subjunctive.
I mean it was like one sentence hardly challenging? I’ve been vegan for over a decade and been round most of the west, where doesn’t have a ton of plant milks? The only struggle is out of comfort.
Just going veggie and cutting out a major source of your nutrients without considering a replacement is far more dangerous than simply switching to readily available vegan alternatives.
One might argue your job is to do what’s best for the child despite your beliefs.
And sure, the risks are lower for vegetarians but you’re still depriving a young child in your care of nutrition because of something you chose for yourself.
You seem to equate your diet with religion or some other deep rooted belief that you feel obligated to pass down. While the people who heard you were forcing this upon a child were thinking it’s more like choosing to smoke or drink heavily. Those two camps aren’t going to find common ground.
You seem to equate your diet with religion or some other deep rooted belief that you feel obligated to pass down.
If anything, passing down ethical beliefs about what is ok to consume and support with your money is more valid to pass down than 2000 year old fairy tales about who should be allowed to do what with their pee pee, not less.
One might argue your job is to do what’s best for the child despite your beliefs.
That’s what I meant with pretend. What’s best boils down to my beliefs, there is no objective criteria.
the risks are lower for vegetarians
No, there are simply no risks in not eating meat. There are risks in eating only potatos, but there’s just as much in eating only bacon. The potential risks in vegetarian and carnivore diet come from not enough diversity. But take a “normal Western” diverse diet, strip out the meat, and you’re perfectly fine in all macro- and micronutrients.
I’m not OP of this subthread btw. Nobody ever came at me for my children’s diet. Which they honestly should, as we eat way to much pasta, but that’s what’s always accepted 😅
Nobody ever came at me for my children’s diet. Which they honestly should, as we eat way to much pasta, but that’s what’s always accepted 😅
That! Noone ever gets side eyed for taking their kids to McDonald’s, which is the acme of malnutrition. But as soon as you don’t serve meat to your kid every day, you get hassled by strangers. There are 35 million malnourished, mostly meat eating kids in the US, just by looking at the number of overweight children. But somehow the 1‰ of those who are vegan seem to be the issue.
Btw. I’m also not the OP of this thread, I’m not even vegan myself. But I get annoyed with these militant carnivores that pop up every time someone mentions veganism, just to spread FUD.
Hmmm, no, it’s the same as eating meat. You pass it down to your children, yes? it’s the exact same, and it presents no health risks whatsoever. No animal products on the other hand (=veganism) has to be carefully controlled for protein and B12 intake. And then it also presents no risks. But it’s definitely more of a balance
IMO those people need to chill. I used to catch shit from my in laws for never feeding my kids meat, but they’re both healthy, strong and they surpass all of their growth and development milestones. Their pediatrician is more than happy with us excluding meat from their diet.
Can you fuck a kid up on a vegetarian or vegan diet? Of course if you don’t know what you’re doing and you feed them nothing but raw fruit or something. I’d argue it’s even easier to fuck them up on a standard American diet. Don’t take your kids to McDonald’s every other day and tell me I’m a shit parent for not feeding meat to mine. (Obviously this last point isn’t directed specifically at you, but at the attitude in general).
It sounds like a lot of people had issues with you for imposing your beliefs and limitations on a child who was too young to consent.
Malnutrition is a very real risk for someone who doesn’t consume meat. It’s very hard to eat enough protein, especially for a growing child. That makes malnutrition a very real risk- your child may not grow as strong or as tall or as healthy as they may have without your restrictions.
HAHAHA, jesus dude. No, all of that is wrong.
Malnutrition is not a risk, vegan’s have less deficiencies on average.
Vegans grow up stronger, taller, and healthier.
Carnists imposing their beliefs on kids and making them eat animals causes tangible negative health outcomes, accelerates the destruction of our planet, is and is ethically vile.
yes, it is
Source?
you first
I’m not the one that made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.
Plenty of studies and evidence in this thread alone that show you’re wrong.
I gave exactly as much support for my claim as you did for yours.
lol, no source then. Just talking mince? You were the one that made the original claim, not be. Burden of proof is on you, coward.
calling me names won’t change the fact that you haven’t supported your claim, and I have supported by claim exactly as much.
Ridiculously false. All dietary groups have risks of nutrient deficiencies that need to be taken into account. Every diet needs proper planning, or do you actually think the standard western dino nuggets, frozen fries, mac and cheese, and fast food burgers, that too many parents default to, doesn’t pose a nutrient deficiency risk? From the linked systematic review:
And here are a collection of statements from leading nutrition authorities from several countries. Just one for example:
Of any nutrient that vegans might be at risk of deficiency of, protein is virtually never one of them. It is entirely feasible, easy even, to get more than enough protein on a plant-based diet - even for people who do strength training. From Christopher Gardner, who specializes on the subject:
Now let’s talk about this idea of “imposing beliefs on your child.” In the first place, what a ridiculous notion, every parent imposes their beliefs on their children. What’s relevant is whose beliefs are better, which ones cause less harm. You speak of informed consent; then given how often children react with shock and sadness when they find out meat comes from animals, doesn’t it make sense to at least wait until they’re old enough to comprehend where their food comes from, and everything that happens to animals before feeding them products that come from animals? Would you feel comfortable showing your child a documentary like Dominion?
And going back to the point about health, I already established that plant-based diets are entirely adequate for all stages of life, including pregnancy and childhood. What about the typical western diets? Heart disease can start as early as the womb, and often does start as early as childhood. Plant-based diets generally don’t have that problem.
As long as a parent is taking basic steps to enure adequate nutrition, vegan diets for kids are a great choice with lots of benefits. It’s the typical western diet that is abusive.
this is no longer their position
Yeah, it basically still is.
you should have quoted their true position, instead of an expired one then.
Well, I mean, first of all it is my job as a parent to “impose my beliefs and limitations” onto my child. We pretend it’s not, but it is in everything I tell my children.
And then
No, it’s not. It can be for vegans. But just not eating meat (aka vegetarian) has no malnutrition risk.
No, it’s not. There is no malnutrition risk from avoiding meat.
That’s…that’s exactly what I wrote there?!
Apologies. Meant there is no risk from avoiding animal products.
Depends on which diet you come from. For having a “standard, western, unhealthy diet” changing nothing but avoiding meat: you have no challenges.
When you take the same diet and substitute all animal products, you could run into issues. Depends on where you’re coming from with your previous diet. Especially true for growing children. But it’s certainly doable, but more effort then just vegetarian.
What issues?
Vegan milks, meats, etc are fortified with everything hard to get and most macro levels are naive and based on studies performed on the general population/omnivores. It’s actually harder as a vegetarian as you don’t get the metabolic pathway benefits like the improved omega6 conversion. This is why you don’t get actual negative outcomes shown for low levels of certain nutrients in vegans.
It’s effortless unless you’ve got a selective eating disorder. Just chuck some flax and nooch in sauces and you’re good to go.
My point is just that.
Vegetarian: do everything the same, just don’t put meat in your dishes
Vegan: your whole paragraph.
You need to find substitutes for milk to benefit of the additives and need to try out. Took me a long time to find a milk substitute I like. Soy based stuff can cover for Calcium, but soy based stuff is rare in a lot of western diets, so you need to experiment.
That’s my whole point. Certainly it is doable, but not as plug and play as a vegetarian diet. And, when you don’t try the stuff mentioned in your paragraph and mine, you might run into issues, especially with children. That’s what I am saying, that’s a subjunctive.
I mean it was like one sentence hardly challenging? I’ve been vegan for over a decade and been round most of the west, where doesn’t have a ton of plant milks? The only struggle is out of comfort.
Just going veggie and cutting out a major source of your nutrients without considering a replacement is far more dangerous than simply switching to readily available vegan alternatives.
One might argue your job is to do what’s best for the child despite your beliefs.
And sure, the risks are lower for vegetarians but you’re still depriving a young child in your care of nutrition because of something you chose for yourself.
You seem to equate your diet with religion or some other deep rooted belief that you feel obligated to pass down. While the people who heard you were forcing this upon a child were thinking it’s more like choosing to smoke or drink heavily. Those two camps aren’t going to find common ground.
If anything, passing down ethical beliefs about what is ok to consume and support with your money is more valid to pass down than 2000 year old fairy tales about who should be allowed to do what with their pee pee, not less.
That’s what I meant with pretend. What’s best boils down to my beliefs, there is no objective criteria.
No, there are simply no risks in not eating meat. There are risks in eating only potatos, but there’s just as much in eating only bacon. The potential risks in vegetarian and carnivore diet come from not enough diversity. But take a “normal Western” diverse diet, strip out the meat, and you’re perfectly fine in all macro- and micronutrients.
I’m not OP of this subthread btw. Nobody ever came at me for my children’s diet. Which they honestly should, as we eat way to much pasta, but that’s what’s always accepted 😅
deleted by creator
That! Noone ever gets side eyed for taking their kids to McDonald’s, which is the acme of malnutrition. But as soon as you don’t serve meat to your kid every day, you get hassled by strangers. There are 35 million malnourished, mostly meat eating kids in the US, just by looking at the number of overweight children. But somehow the 1‰ of those who are vegan seem to be the issue.
Btw. I’m also not the OP of this thread, I’m not even vegan myself. But I get annoyed with these militant carnivores that pop up every time someone mentions veganism, just to spread FUD.
Hmmm, no, it’s the same as eating meat. You pass it down to your children, yes? it’s the exact same, and it presents no health risks whatsoever. No animal products on the other hand (=veganism) has to be carefully controlled for protein and B12 intake. And then it also presents no risks. But it’s definitely more of a balance
You do not need to worry about protein at all. It’s impossible to design an amino acid deficient diet with enough calories.
B12 requirements and recycling also drop in vegans and there’s no evidence lower levels lead to negative outcomes.
IMO those people need to chill. I used to catch shit from my in laws for never feeding my kids meat, but they’re both healthy, strong and they surpass all of their growth and development milestones. Their pediatrician is more than happy with us excluding meat from their diet.
Can you fuck a kid up on a vegetarian or vegan diet? Of course if you don’t know what you’re doing and you feed them nothing but raw fruit or something. I’d argue it’s even easier to fuck them up on a standard American diet. Don’t take your kids to McDonald’s every other day and tell me I’m a shit parent for not feeding meat to mine. (Obviously this last point isn’t directed specifically at you, but at the attitude in general).