Is this just an effort to replace binary blobs, or to actually support usable Linux phones or custom roms…? Are those kinda the same thing in this case?
If it’s the latter this might be the first thing the FSF is actually doing during my time with foss that I’m excited about.
If it’s just that they hate binary blobs, that’s great and all but I do kinda wish they’d focus on stuff that has a way bigger user impact 😅 I think they got really hung up on binary blobs with libreboot or whatever it was also
I’ve worked with Qualcomm SoCs a long time ago and, from my experience, the binary blobs ARE the biggest hurdle to the true Foss phone. Google is the most to blame, IMO, but also the rest of traditional OEMS of SoCs. They basically found the way to circumvent the OSS nature of Linux, which is why even though android is based on linux, the actual product and ecosystem looks nothing like regular Linux. What Google allowed with Android architecture, particularly with their HAL subsystem is force a layer in between native Linux device interface and Android system, so OEMs use that to implement whatever proprietary peripheral (device, sensor, etc) purely in userspace, rather that just as a kernel module. The kernel module is then just a userspace/kernelspace adapter, and everything is handled in the user space. This then means you dont have to have an open source driver, as it is not a part of kernel, and you just lock your driver into a binary blob. And in case of Qualcomm and I assume other oems, everything is just a binary blob. All sensors, microphone, GPS, modem, EVERYTHING. Yes, you can boot a basic Linux kernel, but no other functionality will work. If you had access to the blob source, you’d be able to fix, update and use a newer kernel versions eventually. HAL is technically not the cause of the problem, but it’s certainly an inspiration and almost a blueprint for how to lock down your hardware.
I expect it’s a combination of all the above in some sense. They state they want to build on LineageOS (an Android variant) and replace its binary blobs, I expect the result would be a new custom ROM targeting specific compatible hardware with the goal of ultimately supporting usable phones working on fully Free Software.
What it’s not is the creation of a libre hardware phone. I don’t think they are working on hardware, at least not anytime soon. Also if by “Linux phones” you mean non-Android based, that’s not necessarily a requirement (given that they mention LineageOS), but I expect regardless the kernel will be Linux without the blobs and it’s entirely possible that they add support for installing their firmware on those “Linux phones”.
I do kinda wish they’d focus on stuff that has a way bigger user impact 😅
The thing is that technically we already have fully usable FOSS software at that user level. Using for example LineageOS with F-droid as the only app store already gets you there. Whereas, ensuring your phone is not spying you or having some malicious functionality on the hardware/driver level is something that currently is simply not possible.
The FSF has always been doing the thankless job of championing for the things that are harder and less rewarding to do, but that will advance software freedom most for those who do seek it. Even when that thing is not necessarily the most popular/mainstream. I feel this has more of an impact in software freedom than, say, if they were to reinvent the wheel just to have their brand attached to it, and/or provide a slightly different UI to do the same thing other FOSS software already does.
Gotcha, thank you very much for filling me in, I really appreciate it!
I do think there’s value in ensuring everything low level is open source, but at least with linux phones none of the higher level stuff is really in a good state yet 😅
Its nice to hear this will be an improvement to custom ROMs. Though the future of custom ROMs is feeling a little shaky with the stuff Google has announcing lately 🥲
Is this just an effort to replace binary blobs, or to actually support usable Linux phones or custom roms…? Are those kinda the same thing in this case?
If it’s the latter this might be the first thing the FSF is actually doing during my time with foss that I’m excited about.
If it’s just that they hate binary blobs, that’s great and all but I do kinda wish they’d focus on stuff that has a way bigger user impact 😅 I think they got really hung up on binary blobs with libreboot or whatever it was also
I’ve worked with Qualcomm SoCs a long time ago and, from my experience, the binary blobs ARE the biggest hurdle to the true Foss phone. Google is the most to blame, IMO, but also the rest of traditional OEMS of SoCs. They basically found the way to circumvent the OSS nature of Linux, which is why even though android is based on linux, the actual product and ecosystem looks nothing like regular Linux. What Google allowed with Android architecture, particularly with their HAL subsystem is force a layer in between native Linux device interface and Android system, so OEMs use that to implement whatever proprietary peripheral (device, sensor, etc) purely in userspace, rather that just as a kernel module. The kernel module is then just a userspace/kernelspace adapter, and everything is handled in the user space. This then means you dont have to have an open source driver, as it is not a part of kernel, and you just lock your driver into a binary blob. And in case of Qualcomm and I assume other oems, everything is just a binary blob. All sensors, microphone, GPS, modem, EVERYTHING. Yes, you can boot a basic Linux kernel, but no other functionality will work. If you had access to the blob source, you’d be able to fix, update and use a newer kernel versions eventually. HAL is technically not the cause of the problem, but it’s certainly an inspiration and almost a blueprint for how to lock down your hardware.
Interesting, I think I follow all of that. Thank you very much for explaining
I expect it’s a combination of all the above in some sense. They state they want to build on LineageOS (an Android variant) and replace its binary blobs, I expect the result would be a new custom ROM targeting specific compatible hardware with the goal of ultimately supporting usable phones working on fully Free Software.
What it’s not is the creation of a libre hardware phone. I don’t think they are working on hardware, at least not anytime soon. Also if by “Linux phones” you mean non-Android based, that’s not necessarily a requirement (given that they mention LineageOS), but I expect regardless the kernel will be Linux without the blobs and it’s entirely possible that they add support for installing their firmware on those “Linux phones”.
The thing is that technically we already have fully usable FOSS software at that user level. Using for example LineageOS with F-droid as the only app store already gets you there. Whereas, ensuring your phone is not spying you or having some malicious functionality on the hardware/driver level is something that currently is simply not possible.
The FSF has always been doing the thankless job of championing for the things that are harder and less rewarding to do, but that will advance software freedom most for those who do seek it. Even when that thing is not necessarily the most popular/mainstream. I feel this has more of an impact in software freedom than, say, if they were to reinvent the wheel just to have their brand attached to it, and/or provide a slightly different UI to do the same thing other FOSS software already does.
Gotcha, thank you very much for filling me in, I really appreciate it!
I do think there’s value in ensuring everything low level is open source, but at least with linux phones none of the higher level stuff is really in a good state yet 😅
Its nice to hear this will be an improvement to custom ROMs. Though the future of custom ROMs is feeling a little shaky with the stuff Google has announcing lately 🥲