I know this will be unpopular on this site, but outdoor cats are the nirm here. Most places wont even let you adopt a cat if you cant let it outside. They have been here for thousands of years aleady so any potential damage to wildlife would have happened long ago. Until recently the RSPB even posted research that argued cats dont have any meaningful impact on wildlife species here and their most commonly preyed on species are actually increasing in population. Cats also just like to roam, a house cats territory is on the order of acres of land and houses in the UK are too small to offer them enough space, and they tend to get depressed and agitated if kept inside a small area.
So while in North America its better to keep them indoors, generally in the UK its better to let them roam.
and there is this whole thing about birds having a wings.
i am the owner of an indoor cat and i am all for keeping cats indoors because of how many dead cats i see on the roads in my relatively densely populated urban area. if i won the lottery or something and i would be moving into a house with a garden, i would be scared to let the cat out because of the danger to her, not the birds.
It’s bad for the cats too since the likelihood of getting sick, hurt or dying in an accident, fight, whatever is much higher. Some work from a gut feeling that letting them roam freely is better for them because it’s more natural, but I don’t think that’s supported by the studies in the same way that the likelihood of them getting hurt from roaming freely is.
Also it being more natural is irrelevant. They aren’t wild animals. They’re pets. They’re much better fed than anything they’d compete with, so they aren’t having to worry about being sparing with their caloric expenditure. That’s also not natural.
it may very well be, but what most people don’t realize is that the natural life of wild animals is not a disney fairy tale. their life expectancy is a lot shorter than that of the household pets and their death is often nothing to envy.
I made a catio in my backyard (3rd one attached the house) because our little bastards will kill everything in a kilometre radius. Not that we’ve ever tested that, but we’ve seen how they act when creatures smaller then them are out and about within their purview.
So do they have free access or do they have to be carried in and out? That’s a very cool catio. And fwiw…thanks from a stranger for keeping a few more murdermittens from killing random critters.
It’s actually significantly more expansive than it looks. Part of the bridge you see runs under our deck, and then on the other side there is an enclosed ramp up to our kitchen window. Another part of it forks off to the front of the deck so they have a primo sunbathing spot .We simply unlock the little cat door that was installed in the window screen, and they are out.
Thanks for the kind words. We feel good about the compromise of letting them outside, but not letting them kill all the surrounding wildlife.
Beyond the bird or wildlife problem, outdoor free roaming cats are just generally a problem. I have two cats and an outdoor cat likes to come and taunt them at the window: it seriously stresses them out. It’ll go so far as climbing up screens and damaging them. Cats will also often mark people’s houses.
I walk my cats on leashes. I don’t understand why cat owners can’t understand that people don’t want their cat around unmanaged.
That used to happen to us. The street cat would mark our door constantly, but he has done worse! He once got into the house and marked our curtains, and a year ago, he barged into the house and attacked one of our docile house cats. That was an expensive vet visit. We’ve fed him regularly for years now, but still can’t trust the little shit to this day.
We like him around and we’re not going to stop feeding him and abandon him over a couple of incidences. He does learn, gets along better now and is the father of our youngest so we’d rather have stricter rules than be cruel. It’s also not just my decision.
Because they’re starving and people are cruel. The condition is they need to get neutered, wich is free where I live, so we do it. Also, it wasn’t my decision.
That’s really fucking easy to say when you don’t have a feral rescue. She was born wild, she’s still pretty wild. If I don’t let her out she shreds the interior of the house (especially the doors) and also my limbs. On the plus side she hates litter boxes and lets us know when she needs to go out. And we don’t dare argue. She’s getting older now and we feed her top tier food so she doesn’t really hunt anymore. She used to be a killing machine. Now she barely chases mice in the house, let alone outside.
Cats kill huge numbers of birds. Most small bird species have high reproduction rates, and crowding results in higher death rates from increased disease and parasite spread, competition for food, and all the good shelter from predators being taken. Higher death rates from one cause (say, cats) results in less death rates from crowding-related causes. I haven’t seen any evidence that, in general, cat hunting ends up actually impacting bird populations.
Specific species of birds in certain locations have been harmed by cats: the Wikipedia page list several examples in Australia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife). So it’s good to have local awareness if there’s a particular vulnerable population. But in general, keeping cats inside is only for their own safety and won’t impact bird population one way or another.
The fact that several species in Australia are now extinct kinda shows cats do harm bird populations. Cats are usually an invasive species and hundreds of them in an area can decimate local wildlife. Overcrowding only kill birds when there are too many, while cats will always kill birds. There are definitely places where it matters more, like on small islands, but in general any invasive species can massively shift ecosystems.
You shared a Wikipedia link with sources[1] (and also numerous sections and assertions in the Wikipedia article itself) showing that cats generally impact wildlife populations but came to the conclusion that they don’t. Am I missing something here? Is it because you’re specifically focusing on birds?
Free-roaming domestic cats affect wildlife through predation, disease, hybridization, and indirect fear and competition effects. Our review highlights biases and gaps in the global literature on these impacts, including a focus on oceanic islands, Australia, Europe and North America, and on rural areas, predation, impacts of unowned cats, and impacts at population and species levels. Key research advances needed to better understand cat impacts include more studies in underrepresented regions (Africa, Asia, South America), on impacts other than predation, and on management methods designed to reduce impacts. This review also supports past studies in illustrating that cats negatively affect wildlife populations and communities in most cases in which these potential impacts were evaluated
Yes, specifically focusing on birds. That is the focus I usually see when cat hunting comes up online.
It makes sense small animals that can’t fly would be easier prey - and therefore more likely to be impacted by predation - but I guess only birds are cute or something.
I’m going to remember this argument for the velociraptors released into human populations 😂
Velociraptors kill huge numbers of humans. Most human species have high reproduction rates, and crowding results in higher death rates from increased disease and parasite spread, competition for food, and all the good shelter from predators being taken. Higher death rates from one cause (say, velociraptors) results in less death rates from crowding-related causes. I haven’t seen any evidence that, in general, velociraptor hunting ends up actually impacting human populations.
Specific species of humans in certain locations have been harmed by velociraptors: the Wikipedia page list several examples in Jurassic Park (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurassic_Park). So it’s good to have local awareness if there’s a particular vulnerable population. But in general, keeping velociraptors inside is only for their own safety and won’t impact human population one way or another.
The stray cats I’ve known who found indoor lives never want to go out again. It’s the spoiled, pampered cats who incorrectly think they’re tough who want to go outside. The cats who’ve seen some shit know inside is where it’s at.
Time to be down voted to oblivion for my parents’ exception to the rule: their outside cat just celebrated his 25th birthday. He’s no longer an energetic, murderous little shit, but a grumpy no longer able to murder murderous little shit.
I’m not going to downvote you, but just because you know a lucky cat doesn’t mean being outdoors isn’t bad for the cat.
It’s like hearing about some person who’s reached 100 years old who has a cigar and a shot of bourbon every day and thinking that it’s the shot and the cigar that caused the longevity instead of just the luck of the draw.
Yeah, I’m aware. I pretended to not see it because of all the people who would ignore it and consider your post confirmation that they can let their cat be an outdoor cat.
It may not be abstractly good for cats to be allowed outdoors (my family growing up had a cat eaten by the neighbors dogs, a cat get hit by a car, multiple cats get serious injuries from fights with neighborhood cats, etc.) But having been in a household with a series of cats that only went out when they asked to be let out: they ask to be let out every day. It is completely inconsistent with my experience that a cat would “never want to go outside again”.
Same. I had an outdoor cat growing up (won’t be doing that again) and whenever we where in a situation where we could not let him out hr would do the wildest shit. I remember my dad answering the door and standing so he was blocking the exit and the cat did this wild Prince of Persia move and lept of some furniture, sprang off the door and went over my dad and the guy he was talking to heads.
Couldn’t figure out how to get through the pet friendly mesh door though
My cat was a street cat that I got around 9 months old. Very spoiled indoor cat. She still tries to run outside and escape sometimes, she’s too curious.
Don’t let your cats be outdoor cats. It seriously harms local bird populations. Cats are murderous little shits.
Make a little fully-fenced-in area if you think they need to be outside.
I know this will be unpopular on this site, but outdoor cats are the nirm here. Most places wont even let you adopt a cat if you cant let it outside. They have been here for thousands of years aleady so any potential damage to wildlife would have happened long ago. Until recently the RSPB even posted research that argued cats dont have any meaningful impact on wildlife species here and their most commonly preyed on species are actually increasing in population. Cats also just like to roam, a house cats territory is on the order of acres of land and houses in the UK are too small to offer them enough space, and they tend to get depressed and agitated if kept inside a small area.
So while in North America its better to keep them indoors, generally in the UK its better to let them roam.
and there is this whole thing about birds having a wings.
i am the owner of an indoor cat and i am all for keeping cats indoors because of how many dead cats i see on the roads in my relatively densely populated urban area. if i won the lottery or something and i would be moving into a house with a garden, i would be scared to let the cat out because of the danger to her, not the birds.
It’s bad for the cats too since the likelihood of getting sick, hurt or dying in an accident, fight, whatever is much higher. Some work from a gut feeling that letting them roam freely is better for them because it’s more natural, but I don’t think that’s supported by the studies in the same way that the likelihood of them getting hurt from roaming freely is.
Agreed.
Also it being more natural is irrelevant. They aren’t wild animals. They’re pets. They’re much better fed than anything they’d compete with, so they aren’t having to worry about being sparing with their caloric expenditure. That’s also not natural.
Get a catio, don’t let your cat roam wild.
it may very well be, but what most people don’t realize is that the natural life of wild animals is not a disney fairy tale. their life expectancy is a lot shorter than that of the household pets and their death is often nothing to envy.
Fully enclosed, like a catio. Fences are often nothing to cats.
I made a catio in my backyard (3rd one attached the house) because our little bastards will kill everything in a kilometre radius. Not that we’ve ever tested that, but we’ve seen how they act when creatures smaller then them are out and about within their purview.
Missed opportunity…purrview.
So do they have free access or do they have to be carried in and out? That’s a very cool catio. And fwiw…thanks from a stranger for keeping a few more murdermittens from killing random critters.
Haha damn, totally missed it.
It’s actually significantly more expansive than it looks. Part of the bridge you see runs under our deck, and then on the other side there is an enclosed ramp up to our kitchen window. Another part of it forks off to the front of the deck so they have a primo sunbathing spot .We simply unlock the little cat door that was installed in the window screen, and they are out.
Thanks for the kind words. We feel good about the compromise of letting them outside, but not letting them kill all the surrounding wildlife.
Very cool setup for some happy cats. Nice work.
Yeah…I think I will just stick with walks.
Right, I couldn’t remember the word “catio.”
IDK if it’s even a real word, just a portmanteau that has become common.
Thor: “All words are made up”.
Beyond the bird or wildlife problem, outdoor free roaming cats are just generally a problem. I have two cats and an outdoor cat likes to come and taunt them at the window: it seriously stresses them out. It’ll go so far as climbing up screens and damaging them. Cats will also often mark people’s houses.
I walk my cats on leashes. I don’t understand why cat owners can’t understand that people don’t want their cat around unmanaged.
That used to happen to us. The street cat would mark our door constantly, but he has done worse! He once got into the house and marked our curtains, and a year ago, he barged into the house and attacked one of our docile house cats. That was an expensive vet visit. We’ve fed him regularly for years now, but still can’t trust the little shit to this day.
you incentivize his return. apparently the vet visit didn’t deter you?
We like him around and we’re not going to stop feeding him and abandon him over a couple of incidences. He does learn, gets along better now and is the father of our youngest so we’d rather have stricter rules than be cruel. It’s also not just my decision.
You fed the outdoor cat? Why?
Because they’re starving and people are cruel. The condition is they need to get neutered, wich is free where I live, so we do it. Also, it wasn’t my decision.
Oh my. So I was confused and hadn’t realised “outdoor” could also mean “feral”.
Ohh, yes, my mistake! They’re stray cats. We have our own house cats but those never leave the house.
That’s really fucking easy to say when you don’t have a feral rescue. She was born wild, she’s still pretty wild. If I don’t let her out she shreds the interior of the house (especially the doors) and also my limbs. On the plus side she hates litter boxes and lets us know when she needs to go out. And we don’t dare argue. She’s getting older now and we feed her top tier food so she doesn’t really hunt anymore. She used to be a killing machine. Now she barely chases mice in the house, let alone outside.
Cats kill huge numbers of birds. Most small bird species have high reproduction rates, and crowding results in higher death rates from increased disease and parasite spread, competition for food, and all the good shelter from predators being taken. Higher death rates from one cause (say, cats) results in less death rates from crowding-related causes. I haven’t seen any evidence that, in general, cat hunting ends up actually impacting bird populations.
Specific species of birds in certain locations have been harmed by cats: the Wikipedia page list several examples in Australia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife). So it’s good to have local awareness if there’s a particular vulnerable population. But in general, keeping cats inside is only for their own safety and won’t impact bird population one way or another.
The fact that several species in Australia are now extinct kinda shows cats do harm bird populations. Cats are usually an invasive species and hundreds of them in an area can decimate local wildlife. Overcrowding only kill birds when there are too many, while cats will always kill birds. There are definitely places where it matters more, like on small islands, but in general any invasive species can massively shift ecosystems.
Cats are a recent addition to Australia. Cats have been in the UK fir thousands of years.
You shared a Wikipedia link with sources[1] (and also numerous sections and assertions in the Wikipedia article itself) showing that cats generally impact wildlife populations but came to the conclusion that they don’t. Am I missing something here? Is it because you’re specifically focusing on birds?
[1] https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2656.13745
Free-roaming domestic cats affect wildlife through predation, disease, hybridization, and indirect fear and competition effects. Our review highlights biases and gaps in the global literature on these impacts, including a focus on oceanic islands, Australia, Europe and North America, and on rural areas, predation, impacts of unowned cats, and impacts at population and species levels. Key research advances needed to better understand cat impacts include more studies in underrepresented regions (Africa, Asia, South America), on impacts other than predation, and on management methods designed to reduce impacts. This review also supports past studies in illustrating that cats negatively affect wildlife populations and communities in most cases in which these potential impacts were evaluated
Yes, specifically focusing on birds. That is the focus I usually see when cat hunting comes up online.
It makes sense small animals that can’t fly would be easier prey - and therefore more likely to be impacted by predation - but I guess only birds are cute or something.
I’m going to remember this argument for the velociraptors released into human populations 😂
Well velociraptors were actually tiny so woukdnt pose much threat if any to human populations.
https://www.purrfectfence.com/blogs/news/6-best-cat-fence-toppers-for-an-existing-fence
How do I prevent cats from coming in underneath the fence though?
Chicken wire both keeps pest animals out and acts as a base for any climbing plants you may put against your fence.
You can just staple it on. Paint over it to match your fence color if you want to keep it from rusting
Nothing prevents “in” with cats. You can only plan for “out”.
I just want to stop them from shitting in my yard where the kids play.
The local native bird population here has being driven out by invasive species. Where are the cats when you need them?
Also it’s not good for the cats either.
The stray cats I’ve known who found indoor lives never want to go out again. It’s the spoiled, pampered cats who incorrectly think they’re tough who want to go outside. The cats who’ve seen some shit know inside is where it’s at.
Time to be down voted to oblivion for my parents’ exception to the rule: their outside cat just celebrated his 25th birthday. He’s no longer an energetic, murderous little shit, but a grumpy no longer able to murder murderous little shit.
Very precious, 10/10 to pet
I’m not going to downvote you, but just because you know a lucky cat doesn’t mean being outdoors isn’t bad for the cat.
It’s like hearing about some person who’s reached 100 years old who has a cigar and a shot of bourbon every day and thinking that it’s the shot and the cigar that caused the longevity instead of just the luck of the draw.
🙂
Yeah, I’m aware. I pretended to not see it because of all the people who would ignore it and consider your post confirmation that they can let their cat be an outdoor cat.
Fair point! Added more emphasis to that bit!
Holy shit that is an old cat lmao
It may not be abstractly good for cats to be allowed outdoors (my family growing up had a cat eaten by the neighbors dogs, a cat get hit by a car, multiple cats get serious injuries from fights with neighborhood cats, etc.) But having been in a household with a series of cats that only went out when they asked to be let out: they ask to be let out every day. It is completely inconsistent with my experience that a cat would “never want to go outside again”.
Same. I had an outdoor cat growing up (won’t be doing that again) and whenever we where in a situation where we could not let him out hr would do the wildest shit. I remember my dad answering the door and standing so he was blocking the exit and the cat did this wild Prince of Persia move and lept of some furniture, sprang off the door and went over my dad and the guy he was talking to heads.
Couldn’t figure out how to get through the pet friendly mesh door though
My cat was a street cat that I got around 9 months old. Very spoiled indoor cat. She still tries to run outside and escape sometimes, she’s too curious.