Also liberals: you have to vote for the thing on top or you support Fascism.
Libs making clowns of themselves in this thread is even more comedic than the meme itself.
The real meme, was the libs we found along the way 😄
You could actually show the “education centers”.
How about both Palestinians and Uyghurs deserve to live?
After a decade of accusations, the West still hasn’t been able to find even a single instance of a Uyghur being killed. Meanwhile we’re getting daily footage of massacres in Gaza.
And that’s with Gaza completely closed off with journalists being shoot on sight. Meanwhile anyone can visit Xinjiang
…a single instance of a Uyghur being killed
Genocide is more than just killing, it’s the deliberate destruction of a people including its culture and institutions. In fact, the reason you’re so focused on people dying is because imperialist powers felt the need to redefine it to allow their exploitation. Even in its more narrow definition it still includes things like abducting and re-education of children and malicious targeted actions (forced labor, restricted reproduction, relocation, etc…).
China is a massive country, and has always had issues with maintaining control over its more distant and ethnically distinct pockets. This stretches back centuries right up to now. For example: 100+ years of separatism, uprisings and violent incidents in East Turkestan. Or more recently, 160 Tibetans self immolating in protest of government repression since 2009. In this lens, there’s plenty of evidence that could support these accusations.
Meanwhile anyone can visit Xinjiang
This sounds like something people parrot only if they haven’t actually traveled China. For one, Xinjiang is massive. It’s about the size of Iran; 1/6 of China by land area. Saying you can visit it is like saying you could visit somewhere in France + Spain + Germany + Italy.
For two, foreigners require a special permit to visit ~12-15% of China (varying by year). This includes the expected restricted zones (military or government areas), but also the areas along borders (many in Tibet and Xinjiang) and “politically sensitive” areas. There’s no official list published for obvious reasons but they’ll certainly let you know if you’re not welcome.
As a disclaimer for those of you furiously typing whattaboutgaza: Yes that’s a genocide. Yes, many countries have engaged in similar kinds of repression. Yes media will amplify stories that paint rivals in a bad light, no that’s not unique to western media.
Genocide is more than just killing, it’s the deliberate destruction of a people including its culture and institutions.
(a) Show me the Uyghur bodies
(b) Show me the serious bodily or mental harm
(c) Show me the conditions calculated to bring about physical destruction in whole or in part
(d) Show me the measures intended to prevent births within the group
In accordance with China’s affirmative action policies towards ethnic minorities, all non-Han ethnic groups were subject to different laws and were usually allowed to have two children in urban areas, and three or four in rural areas.
(e) Show me the forcible transfer of children from one group to another group
violent incidents in East Turkestan
I wonder where those Salafi terrorists came from? Oh right: the US, UK, and Israel organized, funded, and trained them, as they did Al Qaeda and the various flavors of ISIS/ISIL, including the “moderate rebels” that just took over Syria. The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent.
160 Tibetans self immolating in protest of government repression since 2009.
That’s a new one to me. What actual evidence is there for this list of ~160 people from the Tibetan government in exile, an NED-funded organization that’s in India, not Tibet? You know the NED is a CIA cut-out, right? Previously:
I’m pretty sure virtually all of the Tibetan people are happy to no longer be suffering under theocratic feudalism. Happy to no longer be illiterate serfs and slaves, suffering depredation under a god-king. I doubt many of them are sad that CIA asset Dalai “suck my tongue” Lama is in exile.[1]
This includes the expected restricted zones (military or government areas), but also the areas along borders (many in Tibet and Xinjiang) and “politically sensitive” areas.
Okay? Almost every country has border restrictions and military & government property restrictions.
abducting and re-education of children […] forced labor
What abductions? What re-education of children? What forced labor? I think you’re just freestyling now.
My point was to rebuff all these comments saying there’s no way X Y Z could happen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence + where there’s smoke there’s fire.
The problem is you and your strawman will never agree on how much fire there could be when you’re citing CCP press releases and he’s citing 3rd parties and hearsay.
Going to reply in broad strokes here due to length:
Previously: […]
- Re-read my comment and point out where I definitively endorsed that every single one of those things is happening. I listed what I did as examples of the ways a genocide can manifest outside of mass murder.
- You’re citing the imperialist genocide definition, look up what Lemkin’s original definition was.
- Just for fun and as an example of how futile these arguments are: Uyghur birth rate allegedly dropped something like 60% from 2016 - 2019 compared to a fractional drop for the general population. Plenty of sources will say a similar number and how it’s from official records but you’ll refuse to accept them so there’s no acceptable way to prove it
[Salafi terrorists]…
- Want to be clear I’m not making any political endorsement about the moral standing of any side. Terrorist/freedom fighter, etc…
- Any violent separatist group has a resentful seed, people don’t blow stuff up solely because some foreign government told them to.
- Yeah, non-state belligerents are going to get foreign funding, not sure what that has to do with my point.
[Tibetan immolation]
- More funding talk, more dismissing sources…
- You can find images of these. I won’t post here because they’re pretty graphic, but that’s concrete evidence in my book. Feel free to equivocate on exact number and intent, but my point was to show that these extreme protests happen.
[border restrictions etc…]
- Pointing out that a disproportionate amount of the restricted area is in these controversial regions
- Not all countries require a permit to approach these areas, generally they’ll let you walk through with a regular visa
- There are accounts of rural villages and obscure rural highways being sporadically restricted. Odd for obvious reasons but again you’ll dismiss and there’s no way for either of us to officially confirm the specific locations 🤷
I’m not here with any specific dog in this race, but it’s clear that these counter arguments come in with a predetermined conclusion and deflect anything that doesn’t fit as a lie. Is there any claim the Chinese government could make that you wouldn’t defend?
It’s not up for argument that this repression has happened in China’s long history, you can check any history book you like (even China’s). The modern difference is careful media control and domestic isolation, which is perfect for creating this exact vague deniability.
you’re citing CCP press releases and he’s citing 3rd parties and hearsay.
And you’re citing nothing and unironically arguing “you can’t prove its not true!”
More funding talk, more dismissing sources…
You have provided no sources, despite making extraordinary claims. You and I having heard these narratives our whole lives isn’t evidence, it’s indoctrination. The burden of proof isn’t on me.
I used to believe all of this, too, like everyone else. They’re the unexamined received wisdom we swim in.
One of these groups is in fact living. The other not so much.
I’m sure you know the phrase “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”, yet while there are almost 400 sources documenting the Uyghur Persecution on the dedicated Wikipedia page, the basis for your argument is a photo of a city?
If what you’re trying to say is that there is a genocide in Gaza that is not adequately documented by our media I’m all with you, but since this thread is attracting some deniers, maybe it’s important to remember that this doesn’t erase a completely disconnected fact that is documented by every major human rights organization (here is, for example, the whole report by Amnesty International: https://xinjiang.amnesty.org/).
That there is or was a “Uyghur genocide” is the extraordinary claim, for which there is extraordinarily scant evidence, which is why the UN dropped it three years ago. Almost no predominantly-Muslim country buys the Uyghur genocide narrative, because they know it’s bullshit, because they talked to the Uyghurs themselves.
https://twitter.com/un_hrc/status/1578003299827171330#HRC51 | Draft resolution A/HRC/51/L.6 on holding a debate on the situation of human rights in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of #China, was REJECTED.
The US tried to foment division in China by funding and organizing Salafi terrorist into Xinjiang, and once those efforts failed, it concocted and promoted a genocide narrative.
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- American Debunks All Major Western Propaganda on Uyghurs and Xinjiang
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent
The only countries pushing this narrative are the “always the same map” imperial core countries, which just so happen to be largely the same countries supporting Israel’s genocide.
It’s never to late to develop real media literacy or to understand how the US incessantly prosecutes regime change operations globally.
Thank you so much for that detailed and informative post! It drives you crazy to see liberals denying the genocide in Gaza while accusing China of one without evidence
No no you don’t understand, the Clintons and Obamas are actually paying Amnesty to fabricate that evidence because they hold a grudge against the Chinese ever since they went on a double date at Panda Express, got food poisoning, and shat their guts out for half a week
No point in arguing with ml instances. They do not get much flak lately because most people has already blocked their instances.
No point in arguing because you’ll lose
Genocide is when no skyscraper
Passive Voicing a bombing campaign that dropped the equivalent explosive power of multiple nuclear bombs on a small strip of land are we?
Oh Netanyahu is absolutely committing genocide in Gaza, didn’t mean to downplay let alone deny that.
My point is that it’s asinine to use a picture of a bunch of skyscrapers as proof, that there is no genocide in Xinjiang.
Should have removedproofed my comment a little better, my mistake
If there was a genocide happening in Xinjiang then there would be actual evidence.
Adrian Zenz saw it in a dream. Is that not proof enough for you?!
Exactly, how can anybody reasonably ask for any more evidence than that.
