After a decade of accusations, the West still hasn’t been able to find even a single instance of a Uyghur being killed. Meanwhile we’re getting daily footage of massacres in Gaza.
And that’s with Gaza completely closed off with journalists being shoot on sight. Meanwhile anyone can visit Xinjiang
Genocide is more than just killing, it’s the deliberate destruction of a people including its culture and institutions. In fact, the reason you’re so focused on people dying is because imperialist powers felt the need to redefine it to allow their exploitation. Even in its more narrow definition it still includes things like abducting and re-education of children and malicious targeted actions (forced labor, restricted reproduction, relocation, etc…).
China is a massive country, and has always had issues with maintaining control over its more distant and ethnically distinct pockets. This stretches back centuries right up to now. For example: 100+ years of separatism, uprisings and violent incidents in East Turkestan. Or more recently, 160 Tibetans self immolating in protest of government repression since 2009. In this lens, there’s plenty of evidence that could support these accusations.
Meanwhile anyone can visit Xinjiang
This sounds like something people parrot only if they haven’t actually traveled China. For one, Xinjiang is massive. It’s about the size of Iran; 1/6 of China by land area. Saying you can visit it is like saying you could visit somewhere in France + Spain + Germany + Italy.
For two, foreigners require a special permit to visit ~12-15% of China (varying by year). This includes the expected restricted zones (military or government areas), but also the areas along borders (many in Tibet and Xinjiang) and “politically sensitive” areas. There’s no official list published for obvious reasons but they’ll certainly let you know if you’re not welcome.
As a disclaimer for those of you furiously typing whattaboutgaza: Yes that’s a genocide. Yes, many countries have engaged in similar kinds of repression. Yes media will amplify stories that paint rivals in a bad light, no that’s not unique to western media.
In accordance with China’s affirmative action policies towards ethnic minorities, all non-Han ethnic groups were subject to different laws and were usually allowed to have two children in urban areas, and three or four in rural areas.
(e) Show me the forcible transfer of children from one group to another group
violent incidents in East Turkestan
I wonder where those Salafi terrorists came from? Oh right: the US, UK, and Israel organized, funded, and trained them, as they did Al Qaeda and the various flavors of ISIS/ISIL, including the “moderate rebels” that just took over Syria. The blueprint of regime change operationsHow regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent.
160 Tibetans self immolating in protest of government repression since 2009.
I’m pretty sure virtually all of the Tibetan people are happy to no longer be suffering under theocratic feudalism. Happy to no longer be illiterate serfs and slaves, suffering depredation under a god-king. I doubt many of them are sad that CIA asset Dalai “suck my tongue” Lama is in exile.[1]
This includes the expected restricted zones (military or government areas), but also the areas along borders (many in Tibet and Xinjiang) and “politically sensitive” areas.
Okay? Almost every country has border restrictions and military & government property restrictions.
abducting and re-education of children […] forced labor
What abductions? What re-education of children? What forced labor? I think you’re just freestyling now.
My point was to rebuff all these comments saying there’s no way X Y Z could happen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence + where there’s smoke there’s fire.
The problem is you and your strawman will never agree on how much fire there could be when you’re citing CCP press releases and he’s citing 3rd parties and hearsay.
Going to reply in broad strokes here due to length:
Previously: […]
Re-read my comment and point out where I definitively endorsed that every single one of those things is happening. I listed what I did as examples of the ways a genocide can manifest outside of mass murder.
You’re citing the imperialist genocide definition, look up what Lemkin’s original definition was.
Just for fun and as an example of how futile these arguments are: Uyghur birth rate allegedly dropped something like 60% from 2016 - 2019 compared to a fractional drop for the general population. Plenty of sources will say a similar number and how it’s from official records but you’ll refuse to accept them so there’s no acceptable way to prove it
[Salafi terrorists]…
Want to be clear I’m not making any political endorsement about the moral standing of any side. Terrorist/freedom fighter, etc…
Any violent separatist group has a resentful seed, people don’t blow stuff up solely because some foreign government told them to.
Yeah, non-state belligerents are going to get foreign funding, not sure what that has to do with my point.
[Tibetan immolation]
More funding talk, more dismissing sources…
You can find images of these. I won’t post here because they’re pretty graphic, but that’s concrete evidence in my book. Feel free to equivocate on exact number and intent, but my point was to show that these extreme protests happen.
[border restrictions etc…]
Pointing out that a disproportionate amount of the restricted area is in these controversial regions
Not all countries require a permit to approach these areas, generally they’ll let you walk through with a regular visa
There are accounts of rural villages and obscure rural highways being sporadically restricted. Odd for obvious reasons but again you’ll dismiss and there’s no way for either of us to officially confirm the specific locations 🤷
I’m not here with any specific dog in this race, but it’s clear that these counter arguments come in with a predetermined conclusion and deflect anything that doesn’t fit as a lie. Is there any claim the Chinese government could make that you wouldn’t defend?
It’s not up for argument that this repression has happened in China’s long history, you can check any history book you like (even China’s). The modern difference is careful media control and domestic isolation, which is perfect for creating this exact vague deniability.
You have provided no sources, despite making extraordinary claims. You and I having heard these narratives our whole lives isn’t evidence, it’s indoctrination. The burden of proof isn’t on me.
I used to believe all of this, too, like everyone else. They’re the unexamined received wisdom we swim in.
How about both Palestinians and Uyghurs deserve to live?
After a decade of accusations, the West still hasn’t been able to find even a single instance of a Uyghur being killed. Meanwhile we’re getting daily footage of massacres in Gaza.
And that’s with Gaza completely closed off with journalists being shoot on sight. Meanwhile anyone can visit Xinjiang
Genocide is more than just killing, it’s the deliberate destruction of a people including its culture and institutions. In fact, the reason you’re so focused on people dying is because imperialist powers felt the need to redefine it to allow their exploitation. Even in its more narrow definition it still includes things like abducting and re-education of children and malicious targeted actions (forced labor, restricted reproduction, relocation, etc…).
China is a massive country, and has always had issues with maintaining control over its more distant and ethnically distinct pockets. This stretches back centuries right up to now. For example: 100+ years of separatism, uprisings and violent incidents in East Turkestan. Or more recently, 160 Tibetans self immolating in protest of government repression since 2009. In this lens, there’s plenty of evidence that could support these accusations.
This sounds like something people parrot only if they haven’t actually traveled China. For one, Xinjiang is massive. It’s about the size of Iran; 1/6 of China by land area. Saying you can visit it is like saying you could visit somewhere in France + Spain + Germany + Italy.
For two, foreigners require a special permit to visit ~12-15% of China (varying by year). This includes the expected restricted zones (military or government areas), but also the areas along borders (many in Tibet and Xinjiang) and “politically sensitive” areas. There’s no official list published for obvious reasons but they’ll certainly let you know if you’re not welcome.
As a disclaimer for those of you furiously typing whattaboutgaza: Yes that’s a genocide. Yes, many countries have engaged in similar kinds of repression. Yes media will amplify stories that paint rivals in a bad light, no that’s not unique to western media.
Previously:
I wonder where those Salafi terrorists came from? Oh right: the US, UK, and Israel organized, funded, and trained them, as they did Al Qaeda and the various flavors of ISIS/ISIL, including the “moderate rebels” that just took over Syria. The blueprint of regime change operations How regime change happens in the 21st century with your consent.
That’s a new one to me. What actual evidence is there for this list of ~160 people from the Tibetan government in exile, an NED-funded organization that’s in India, not Tibet? You know the NED is a CIA cut-out, right? Previously:
Okay? Almost every country has border restrictions and military & government property restrictions.
What abductions? What re-education of children? What forced labor? I think you’re just freestyling now.
My point was to rebuff all these comments saying there’s no way X Y Z could happen. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence + where there’s smoke there’s fire.
The problem is you and your strawman will never agree on how much fire there could be when you’re citing CCP press releases and he’s citing 3rd parties and hearsay.
Going to reply in broad strokes here due to length:
I’m not here with any specific dog in this race, but it’s clear that these counter arguments come in with a predetermined conclusion and deflect anything that doesn’t fit as a lie. Is there any claim the Chinese government could make that you wouldn’t defend?
It’s not up for argument that this repression has happened in China’s long history, you can check any history book you like (even China’s). The modern difference is careful media control and domestic isolation, which is perfect for creating this exact vague deniability.
And you’re citing nothing and unironically arguing “you can’t prove its not true!”
You have provided no sources, despite making extraordinary claims. You and I having heard these narratives our whole lives isn’t evidence, it’s indoctrination. The burden of proof isn’t on me.
I used to believe all of this, too, like everyone else. They’re the unexamined received wisdom we swim in.
One of these groups is in fact living. The other not so much.