The Trump administration has, for the first time ever, built a searchable national citizenship data system.
The tool, which is being rolled out in phases, is designed to be used by state and local election officials to give them an easier way to ensure only citizens are voting. But it was developed rapidly without a public process, and some of those officials are already worrying about what else it could be used for.
NPR is the first news organization to report the details of the new system.
For decades, voting officials have noted that there was no national citizenship list to compare their state lists to, so to verify citizenship for their voters, they either needed to ask people to provide a birth certificate or a passport — something that could disenfranchise millions — or use a complex patchwork of disparate data sources.
Given that US citizens are getting immigration court notices and even getting deported, I’m sure this is a very accurate and trustworthy system.
We are in the dumbest timeline.
Does an independent civillian organization maintain this list? Or is the servers gonna be located at trump tower and orange fuckface just deleted anyone with dark skin tone. from the “citizen” list?
(Rhetorical question, we all know the real answer lol)
Why this is unneeded
Citizenship is already required to vote in state and federal elections. Every state currently maintains its own voter rolls. These voter rolls are administered at the state level and how citizenship is proved occurs according to state laws.
Why this is bad
This database represents a breach of state autonomy to administer their elections.
Some localities do not require citizenship to vote. This database could disenfranchise voters in those localities.
This represents a huge target for hackers, and given that every municipality will have access to it, there are a lot of potential ways in which it could be compromised or manipulated. The federal government is rife with inaccurate information, and is often understaffed to address the issue. These issues can and will disenfranchise voters. States and municipalities are better equipped to handle their voter rolls.How this will be abused
This database will be used to both verify citizenship, and for election officials to upload who is registered to vote in a given electoral area. This will lead to its usage to disqualify people who are registered in multiple areas. If - 31 days before an election, someone uploads a list of conservative or liberal voters from a purple area such as Florida or Ohio to the rolls of another state using hacked credentials, then it’s very possible those people will be disqualified from voting and may not know until they try to cast their ballot - shifting the balance of the election.
With the Supreme Court recently discarding birthright citizenship without clarifying who qualifies for citizenship, a sufficiently malicious actor could ensnarl the electoral and legal system with arbitrary claims that people’s parents were not U.S. citizens.
Invariably, the data from this will be used to stalk hapless people — either by electoral workers, or by anyone, once it has been hacked.
And, speculatively - what happens if the scope of this morphs to a ‘voter eligibility’ database, where it tries to ascertain if someone is eligible to vote on additional criterion, such as criminal history? Will it be plagued with errors, such as not registering expunged records, or applying one state’s laws to another?Citizenship is already required to vote in state […] elections.
This is incorrect. The law you think you’re referencing by this is only applicable to Federal positions. Several states explicitly allow non-citizen voting in local elections. Many have no laws on the books at all addressing it. Only 15 states explicitly prohibit non-citizen voting for local positions.
https://ballotpedia.org/Laws_permitting_noncitizens_to_vote_in_the_United_States
This fact alone should mandate that the federal level maintains their own registrations. The State and Federal levels have different applicable voter rolls because the state doesn’t have the same requirements as the federal elections.
Edit: Wrong word.
Citizenship is already required to vote in state and federal elections.
Then you should have no problem with this because it won’t stop anyone who is allowed to vote from voting, will it? :)
Everyone who votes absolutely should be checked to see if they are allowed to vote by citizenship. The only reason to disagree with this would be if you want non-citizens to vote in elections that they’re not supposed to.
Please read the rest of the comment
I’ve read it, it’s just more conspiracy theories.
I see nothing wrong with making sure people who vote are citizens, what I object to is kicking actual citizens off the voting roles because they’re not Republicans.
You should absolutely see something wrong. This is solving a problem that doesn’t exist, which means it’s actually trying to solve a different “problem”, namely that minorities get to vote.
Yeah, there’s nothing wrong with this proposal, however, if we know one thing about this regime, it’s that they will use anything as a political tool for their advantage. So, it’s very likely that Trump uses this project as an avenue to revoke the citizenship of his perceived political enemies. It’s probably a good idea to get a passport issued before this gets started so it’s at least a little bit harder for them to claim you aren’t a citizen.
Not saying it’s unreasonable to err on the side of caution in opposing anything Trump does, but the move to end birthright citizenship is aimed at the automatic citizenship granted to anyone born on US soil, and anyone born anywhere with at least one American parent. The goal is to suppress non-white voting by invalidating citizenships for people MAGA considers “foreigners”. Most Americans were born in America to American-born parents, and have nothing to worry about unless MAGA tries to redefine citizenship at the Constitution level.
The goal is to suppress non-white voting by invalidating citizenships for people MAGA considers “foreigners”.
No, the goal is to stop illegal immigrants crossing the border into america, giving birth, and then never leaving because their kid is a US citizen.
There is no evidence of voter fraud from people who actually vote. This is blatant government overreach to secure illegitimate votes, “if they’re in the system, then they can vote.”
This system will only lead to inflation of “bot” or fake identities to inflate voter numbers for any particular candidate polling.
So if you vote against him, you lose citizenship and he gets 100% of the votes?
Is it built on top of a Palantir database?
no no, it’s an input to a Palantir database
My money’s on it
Person from outside the US here. Please explain me why this is a problem?
In the EU only citizens can vote in national elections, for local elections non-citizens can vote only if they are residents.
Also outside the US, and the “problem” is that people - pretty much exclusively democrat voters - want illegal immigrants to be able to vote, or at least don’t want their illegal votes to not be counted, because they overwhelmingly vote Democrat since the Democrats are the ones importing them and giving them freebies.
With everything he does the issue is the implementation. Deport criminal aliens? I’m all for it, but most of the deportees have no criminal record or they accuse them of crimes as if it’s the same thing as a conviction.
Part of Trump’s grand plan is to make federal elections span only a single day. So maybe you check your status the day before and everything is fine, but the day of voting a glitch in the system says it can’t verify your citizenship. That’s it! No votes for you this year!
Deport criminal aliens? I’m all for it, but most of the deportees have no criminal record or they accuse them of crimes as if it’s the same thing as a conviction.
Illegal immigration is a crime.
You already can’t vote if you’re not a citizen. There are voter rolls and you get checked off when you go vote.
This almost certainly will be used to deport people without going through due process.
I think in most cases where this administration seems to have a good idea it’s important to remember that it’s likely designed to keep them in power.
A national database that the trump admin controls will 100% be exploited for their own gain, just like every other aspect of government is being exploited for their gain now.
A national database that the trump admin controls
But if/when the Democrats win it will be under their “control”.
What happens if someone is illegitimately removed from this database? How can you show whether it was a glitch, or deliberate? How do you know if the information they have about you is even right, or get it changed if you need to? Where’s the accountability?
See the UK Post Office accounting scandal, in which a persistent computer error went unfixed for decades and caused hundreds of post office employees to be fired and dragged through courts for corruption that never happened. A good chunk of them committed suicide. The government and the software company both knew about the bug causing the issue, too, but prosecutions continued. “If the computer says it, it must be right”, sort of danger.
What happens if someone is illegitimately removed from this database? How can you show whether it was a glitch, or deliberate? How do you know if the information they have about you is even right, or get it changed if you need to? Where’s the accountability?
Database logs and procedural logs is how you know.
If you move state etc you would update your details with the government, just like you already should be doing.
See the UK Post Office accounting scandal, in which a persistent computer error went unfixed for decades and caused hundreds of post office employees to be fired and dragged through courts for corruption that never happened. A good chunk of them committed suicide.
The database is the least important part of the system: the organizational structure, rules, and procedures are way more important, because they actively help or harm people.
That’s a really weird way of looking at it. Without the database, there’s no central ledger to consult as to whether or not you’re legally a person. Like @[email protected] said:
The database is the backbone of them being able to hurt or harm
Without that starting point, “the organizational structure, rules, and procedures” that rely on the data from the database are impotent.
That’s a really weird way of looking at it.
That’s how I roll.
Without the database, there’s no central ledger to consult as to whether or not you’re legally a person.
We’re already seeing them do that without a database. 🤷♂️
Other countries are able to maintain internal databases without using them to screw over their own citizens (except when they do). The problem isn’t the database.
The database is the backbone of them being able to hurt or harm so I’d say it’s pretty important. Here’s the other problem though. The federal government under Trump is having a really difficult time protecting the personal identifiable information of the citizens. Not only have they allowed private companies to access that data (palantir etc), but they are also having a lot of difficulties with cyber attacks. Part of the reason those cyber attacks haven’t been as effective as they could be is because the data isn’t localized in one place. Now that’s exactly what they’re trying to do with this.
Same fucking way americans correct issues with SSA, DHS, and the IRS: paperwork. Come the fuck on with this slippery slope bullshit. Ever had a job? The I-9 employment authorization paperwork… just shut up
Yes I think you missed the point.
If you are purged you can’t vote. That becomes a problem on election day.
You might get a feel-good provisional ballot but no real way to track that it got counted.
This is what happened last year, except by a bunch of randos claiming that so-and-so wasn’t a legal voter, with no proof or recourse.
So now they can just check against RNC registered voters and “disable” 10% of people who aren’t registered RNC and no way to prove or possibly even know until after the election passes.
No thanks.
Not to mention they could run this against the voter rolls, so you show as eligible if you check your registration status, but have your ballot tossed (or get turned around at the polling place) because you’re not on this other database.
It’s fascinating to see this find new pastures in the new world. As a proud Russian citizen.
Some day you’ll remember with nostalgie those years of the ruling party actually caring to win elections.
Jokes aside, it’s easier to cheat now because it’s easier to do everything, and that’s because of the Internet and modern computing systems.
You can’t unmince minced meat back.
But you can apply the same change in a different direction and see that today direct non-anonymous democracy is actually plausible, if it’s instituted, for big countries. 100 years ago it simply wasn’t possible. Now it is.
Or that today Soviet system (as in Soviet democracy and not totalitarian state capitalism) is actually possible to build. When they were trying, they couldn’t, they didn’t possess the means.
And that both these things are actually what these people have done to us, but inverted. Our “direct vote” is the data they collect about us to classify and predict us for control. Our “Soviets” are that classification, and our “central planning” is those predictions and control.
They’ve done all this, just directed for their own interest. So maybe one can do the opposite.
Slippery slope? It’s literally been done. Voter roles purged too close to an election to be able to vote. The complaint here is that this database makes it too easy to do what they’ve already done a bunch of times.
You can be snarky, or you can be ignorant. It’s a bad look to be both.
Looking for ways the system can be abused and addressing those loopholes is basic risk assessment, so
just shut up
I strongly suggest taking a heaping helping of your own advice, mate.
It’s not a problem. It’s fair to assume anything the Trump administration does is nefarious.
Because they want to use the data for more nefarious purposes to displace non-white American voters.
The US is generally the same where some local elections allow non-citizen residents to vote for local issues.
The issue with this is was not created publicly. We don’t know what kind of data is being uses to determine someone’s status. If someone is private enough to not have any data collected by its source, then they could be denied voting rights despite being legally able to vote.
It also could end up bring used as the sole source for verifying someone’s status, despite having documents to prove otherwise.
I would imagine it’s based on social security numbers.
So it’s credit score based?
Every region in the world has its way of doing things. When new layers of control are added, it makes some people nervous.
When the new controls are perhaps mismanaged and corrupt, promising to do more than advertised, it makes some people angry. Especially during an increase of lawlessness and corruption of the central government. Especially when it uses the same messaging which has already harmed many
The ONLY People who Are WORRIED about This are STUPID LIBRULS trying to ILLEGALLY Vote! Everyone else is TOTALLY Fine with this because there’s NO WAY a Database like This can be Misused by a Government Deporting LEGAL CITIZENS and trying to Make GAY AND TRANS PEOPLE ILLEGAL!
Where I live we have something called the electoral roll, which is a nationwide database of registered voters.
It’s weird the states don’t also have this already.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking this is a legitimate implementation of such a system. It will absolutely be intentionally flawed in ways that allow the disenfranchisement of millions of Americans citizens. That’s 100% what always happens with Republican initiatives to “protect” elections. It will be made trivial to “accidentally” remove legitimate voter registrations, and a labyrinthian bureaucratic process to correct them.
I’m fairly sure we already do, but they are administered state by state, and not centralized.
Yeah, it is called voter rolls.
So, states already have their list of registered voters, this is about culling people from that list the state doesn’t think should really be there (but really specifically those supporting the opposition of the party in power, typically Republicans removing minority groups).
The reason removing people is a real thing that needs to happen is that people aren’t permanent citizens of a state, they’re just residents, and what state they are a resident of for voting purposes is extremely easy to change, and doesn’t really require notifying the state you’re leaving, just the one you now want to be a resident of.
The reason this specific thing is bullshit is that every time anyone does any kind of check for non-citizens voting, it’s basically non-existent. Instead, they’re going to use the pretense of checking citizenship to check other information, which they’ll selectively find other discrepancies in to remove people who are registered, but are likely to support their opposition. Likely with little time before an election, so hopefully they don’t find out until it’s too late or other frictions cause them to forgo voting voluntarily.
This must be opposed by all state authorities
Sounds very 1930’s German like.
The posts on this thread are evidence that people don’t actually care about the policies; if there is an oompa loompa behind it, it must be bad.
Almost every move the current US administration has done to cut red tape has been utterly stupid. This one actually makes sense. Having a separate citizenship database for every state is just silly.
