Socialists don’t hate markets, they hate workers not having any power or democratic choice in how they interact in the market.
Workers owning the means of production just means the workers are doing the same work but they are in ownership of the factory and the profits. They will still sell the products they produce in a marketplace.
Wtf is an uncorrupt government?
Do conservatives on lemmy ever do anything but whine that they’re not immediately worshiped for their opinions?
I think you will find any place thats well moderated and cracks down on bigotry and hatespeech will skew left.
Weird how that is, huh?
Well spoken, dubious fart.
Most would agree with your point - right up until you suggest that having an “uncorrupt government” is remotely possible.
Pretty much the same level of unrealistic idealism as folks who think it’s remotely possible to transition a state to communism without it turning into authoritarianism.
There, now I’ve pissed off everyone lol
Edit: Except, I guess for the hardcore capitalists, but I assume those guys are all too dumb to read, so no point, really 🤷
Luckily an entirely uncorrupt government is not necessary, since that is indeed quite unlikely to ever happen. It is enough to have low corruption, which is much more achievable.
Honestly at this point, even a low corruption government seems harder than balancing a boulder on a toothpick for the super powers of the world
Maybe so, but… That might be because China and America have too much international power. Power attracts the corrupt and global power attracts the most corrupt on the globe.
There’s a book about why power seems to attract this sort of people - can’t remember the name right now, might update later.
In short, it’s not power on its own, but rather the systems we built around and for power, making it unattractive for people we want to end up in power, while the people who we don’t want to end up in power pursue it regardless because they want power for the sake of it.
What I’m trying to say is, this is another issue that we can actually tackle and solve to a large degree. There’s hope!
Except me, your friendly neighborhood anarcho-communist
Came here to post this. Sure seems like states are the problem here…
Same, I have no problem with any of that
Sup, Comrade Spood (⌐■‿■)
FINALLY! My searches had ended! I found anarcho-communist!
You should spread the word about lemmyunleashed.net its a really small instance that operates democratically. I’m the only ancom here (that I know of) but I think it’d be a great place for anarchists due to its direct democratic nature. And anarchists don’t really have a space of their own on lemmy that I know of
Or we should start our own instance, but idk how to do that so someone else will need to figure that out lol
Edit: Except, I guess for the hardcore capitalists, but I assume those guys are all too dumb to read, so no point, really 🤷
same level of unrealistic idealism as folks who think it’s remotely possible to transition a state to communism without it turning into authoritarianism.
same level of unrealistic idealism as folks who think it’s remotely possible to transition a state to communism from authoritarianism.
No, you’re right. Anarchism is the way (:
Markets don’t “create wealth”. People’s work creates wealth. Banks don’t create wealth, they create debt and allow more money to go into circulation than actually exists.
Regulation isn’t only desired, it’s crucial for any market economy to work, lest they devolve into corrupt, abusive monopolies and oligopolies. Granted, bad regulation can be equally abusive and real cases are plentiful.
Just as important as regulation is taxing who has more money, because generating wealth won’t automagically distribute it in any ideal manner. The worst problem nowadays is just how easy it is for rich assholes to legally evade taxes no matter which country they’re from.
Markets don’t “create wealth”. People’s work creates wealth. Banks don’t create wealth, they create debt and allow more money to go into circulation than actually exists.
I think the world would make a giant leap forward if we could all agree on this. Sad thing is that finance basically exist to muddy the waters of what value is. (EDITED, incorrect formating)
Honestly, I think capitalism wouldn’t be so bad if it was limited to what it’s good at. Fashion, tech, entertainment, snacks, ect.
But essential food, housing, water, healthcare, even electricity and internet access, the idea that these things that will always have infinite demand is haphazardly controlled through profit motive is disgusting.
Infrastructures should be government controlled and free. Essential resources should have some sort of universal basic “food stamps” system. Then actual money just becomes the luxury “fun bucks” that you don’t lose out on if you don’t have a lot. For example pet owners would be given a credits for pet food and free vet care, but a silly pet costume would use money.
Disclaimer: This is just a personal idea I’ve been mulling over, I’m sure there’s a million holes in it.
Why do you want a middle class? So you have a class to aspire to and a class to denigrate? Why do you want classes?!
Capitalism is not “when you have markets.” I totally agree that it’s important to have well regulated markets. But capitalism perverts democracy with bribery and lobbying. Democratic Socialism is when you have a democratic government and a democratic economy.
Democratic socialism and capitalism can coexist. As long as the former significantly neuters the latter. Capitalism is (supposed to be) an economic organization, not a political one. It’s just captured the government in the US and other places.
It’s just captured the government in the US and other places.
That is a core function of capitalism, not some crazy coincidence. There are market economy models separate from capitalism.
Could you point me to the economy models you are refering to?
I think the biggest mistake of the social market economy practised in Germany, was overlooking or disregarding the fact, that policy and policymakers are themselves part of market forces by lobbying, corruption and bribery. This leads to creeping reduction in social standards and development of the economy towards are radical free-market economy, which in turn inevitably leads to feudalism and fascism eventually, as demonstraded live in the US currently.
Market Socialism (like worker co-ops)is my personal preference:
Private companies still exist, but instead of being beneficially owned by separate investors, they are collectively owned by the workers themselves. Think privately-traded corporations where all shares are held exclusively by employees. Profits can be reinvested in the company, spun-off into other ventures, or distributed between the workers themselves.
This retains the competitive benefits of markets, while cutting out the non-working investor class. Fewer billionaires, stronger middle class.
And, instead of dictatorial decisions coming from CEOs and separate investors, the decisions would be debated and decided by vote in the workers’ board. An actual workplace democracy
There’s only one kind of democratic economy and we already have a word for it - it’s socialism. If the means of production isn’t owned by the workers it’s not democratic. It’s not socialist.
Exactly markets aren’t the distinction, communist and socialist democracies all have markets. A really interesting model of that was Allende’s Project Cybersyn in Chile before the US sponsored fascist coup that put Pinochet in charge. There’s highly regulated markets within capitalist countries as well, bulk energy is largely very “designed” and regulated markets.
The Marxian view of socialism would consider it as a transition state between capitalism and communism. While someone may be ideologically communist, they will likely have more political opportunities catering to socialist policies in capitalist democracies with a “left” party. Revolutionaries don’t believe this is possible, and argue capitalism’s structure won’t be threatened by socialist policies unless a revolution occurs, and might even consider comrades who support socialist parties as “not real” communists. Germany’s socialist party supporting ww1 is often used in forms of this argument.
Ultimately in a lot of these capitalist democracies, there are individual leftists but no real political power, this is certainly the case in the US. Working to raise class-consciousness and labor organizing is basically the front of whatever left exists there. It’s a bleak time to be on the left, and sometimes I wish I could have the enthusiasm of the self-righteous liberals who naively think that if everyone regardless of identity was distributed equally in the capitalist system everything would be right and fair.
And when democratic government turns into direct democracy socialism turns into communism
although how do you want to achieve a democratic economy? voting? 🤣 corrupt politics and capitalism are symbiotic. how do you plan on getting rid of just one of them.
I agree! Let me know when you find an uncorrupt government or uncorrupt corporation.
My experience has been the opposite. I’ve found that the majority of users tend to lean towards neoliberal and center-right ideologies. I guess most of them are probably American, so their warped worldview has them considering these ideologies as ‘left-wing’ instead 🙃
Same!
Where are these people you’re talking about, because all I see is a sea of red.
Go to c/atheism to see the pinnacle of centrist thought.
Ugh if only atheists weren’t the vegans of religion
Because those of us that are center-right/right believe in less government. I wouldn’t trust the US government with my dogs health, let alone my own.
Cumming to my relentless trust for insurance agency middlemen.
You don’t have to worry about that if you have a good job with premium health insurance.
America is a sink or swim country and there’s no life gaurd on duty. If you want socialism/communism, just move to China, Russia, North Korea, or Cuba because that shit ain’t gonna happen here.
Sorry
The fact that public healthcare probably won’t happen is different from the argument that we should trust predatory insurance companies.
Plus you don’t have to go to China for public health care. You could go to Canada or the UK, obviously. And they’re capitalist as fuck. Although capitalism will likely get rid of their public healthcare eventually, they haven’t succeeded yet.
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Those states fucking suck and no socialist or communist in the western world will tell you to envy them. Can I ask for a bit of social democracy (scandinavian governments) though, as a treat?
Cuba’s life expectancy has surpassed yours m8.
You don’t have to worry about that if you have a good job with premium health insurance.
And if you don’t have a good job with premium health insurance?
If you want socialism/communism, just move to China, Russia, North Korea, or Cuba
Ah yes, contemporary communist Russia!
I just wanna let you know, I’m an American leftist and I have that exact same distrust in government. I don’t want less government but rather none of it at all. Unfortunately, before that might become possible, a lot of the policies I advocate for do indeed require more regulations and bureauctats.
Anarchism is impossible, nature abhors a vacuum
I 100% agree but I still appreciate anarchism as a critical position. Not a system to actually implement, but a criticism of the corrupt nature of the current regime.
I’m not an anarchist but I’d miss their perspectives if they weren’t around.
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I hear you bro, It’s not that I’m not against having some socialist policies, I just don’t trust the people in power to enact them with the interest of the public in mind
I also think the problem with this world is overpopulation. If you have too many people, then some of them become disposable. Look at how corporate media is flipping out now that the birth rate has dropped.
It’s all about having enough people to exploit.
PS: I’m not the one that downvoted you.
Socialism is when the people take control and classes are abolished. So yeah I would hella agree I don’t trust the people in power to do it. I don’t want to do anything about the population of 8 billion, however it does clearly play into capital to have so many people to exploit.
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Bottom line to me is, no I don’t trust the government at all. Unfortunately the options are the government and private insurance. and seeing how the government is the only thing that stops them from charging super sky high premiums, and then find excuses not to cover anything when you get sick.
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I don’t, the point I was making is the corporations are unspeakably untrustworthy and always will focus purely on what gives them the most money. The government is usually corrupt and will often let these corporations do what they want to do. My point is the government at its worse, is the same as large corporations at their best.
So when it comes to things like healthcare… yes I’ll take the gov over the corporations.
There are hardcore liberals around here too. That’s what you get when there isn’t an algorithm to promote fascists.
“uncorrupt government”
😂😂😂
I think he means one like Norway or Sweden. Not impossible, yes not perfect but I’ll be damed if you say it’s not working for them.
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It works because they act as tax havens to help rich people from other countries hide their wealth. It’s not a sustainable system for every government, and it is pretty corrupt to help wealthy people avoid paying taxes in their country just so you can have a bit of their wealth in yours…
Totally a thing!! /s
Market != Capitalism. You can have a free market without capitalism, and capitalism without a free market.
The hexbears will attack me for saying that a regulated free market is good and a planned economy is bad. The others will attack me for saying that capitalism is bad and that we should have market socialism instead. But if we can’t have that, a capitalist free market has proven much less bad than any planned economy, as long as it’s regulated enough that it stays free.
That’s the thing, when people say free market they mean a unregulated one and not a social democracy, markets are a effective tool to generate wealth and progress but they don’t spread that wealth very well and profit over everything isn’t a great way to help people so you need heavy regulations and certain areas shouldn’t be under market control at all because people can’t choose to use them!
Since nobody agrees with terminology, we might as well just say: we should do Scandinavia
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Do you mean their economy and policies, or their people? In either case, I agree.
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They didn’t say “be” Scandinavia, but “do”.
Ah, I see.
This is correct and praxis, date more Scandinavian hotties.
The problem is that a middle class, can only be a middle class if it’s in between an upper class and a lower class. It’s in the name: MIDDLE class.
There will always be a distribution of wealth. The key thing is how broad that distribution is.
Yeah, there’s no problem with a meritocracy as long as the top and the bottom of the gradient aren’t (literally can’t pay bills -> more money than you could ever spend.)
Like in no sane world would people willingly become surgeons for the same pay as a sanitation worker, that’s just fucking stupid. Why spend a decade going through school to be a doctor when you could just go pick up trash and make the same money? We have to have some kind of variation in pay scale or society wouldnt function.
Like you said, how much difference between the top and the bottom definitely doesn’t have to be what it is.
Yeah but in the current form of meritocracy both the surgeon and the sanitation worker are relatively poor compared to the upper class. And that exactly is the problem: you cant get rich just by working.
Assuming that the education could be free, why wouldn’t you expect people to train as surgeons?
I think it’s funny that some people think that if they wouldn’t do it themselves then no one would.
I currently make more money than the average surgeon does in the UK, and it isn’t close. Top end is like 130k for them.
People will still be doctors if you cut the pay doctors get, because they are, elsewhere, right now.
