Sander’s is likely the most sincere public figure in his support of his policies…
I agree that Sanders is a democratic socialist. I am confused as to why you brought this incident up then. I thought you were trying to prove that Sanders was an authoritarian, but it seems like we both agree that this was a mistake he made and not some outcome that he wanted to happen or that was aligned with his ideology.
But Socialism explicitly calls for creating a heavily centralize givernment
It’s not clear to me that Socialism explicitly calls for that, maybe I have missed that. But Bernie is a Democratic Socialist. I understand this to mean that democracy would be used to create the laws, not an authoritarian. A similar concept to what the US uses today.
I agree that Sanders is a democratic socialist. I am confused as to why you brought this incident up then. I thought you were trying to prove that Sanders was an authoritarian, but it seems like we both agree that this was a mistake he made and not some outcome that he wanted to happen or that was aligned with his ideology.
Emphasis added by me. I’m saying that to a Centrist (and honestly to myself too). Sander’s actions to dismiss problems in a desired government program is aligned with his ideology. And a viewing of the record of Socialism and Socialist thought has seen that same patter arise over and over again.
It’s not clear to me that Socialism explicitly calls for that, maybe I have missed that. But Bernie is a Democratic Socialist. I understand this to mean that democracy would be used to create the laws, not an authoritarian.
Some OG Source but the context here is, after Das Kapital. The Socialist ideology takes off. Movements in Marx’s lifetime to “vote in” Socialism arose, in this instance in Germany. Marx criticizes this attempt instead of advocating for revolution and dictatorial control exercised by a smaller group of Socialist leaders eg. the “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” (wikipedia summary that’s easier reading).
Capitalism is a system that’s designed to orchestrate the economy of a state. It offers some suggestions for the content of its society and the organization of its government but it is largely agnostic. And has been successfully used alongside Dictatorships, Republics, and Monarchs alike. Socialism dictates not just the economy of a state, but the makeup and mores of its society along with the organization of its Government. There are many modern Socialists who are led to believe that Socialism is compatible with a modern, Western society and Republic; but it pretty explicitly rejects it. Bernie, I believe, is one of those people. But when given power he exercised that power in the same fashion that non-Democratic Socialists of the past have done. That should be concerning to all people, including Centrists.
No need to apologies, I hope things are going well.
Sander’s actions to dismiss problems in a desired government program is aligned with his ideology.
So your saying Sanders has an anti-government ideology? To say another way, Sanders want to maximize the amount of dismissed problems in the government? I mean maybe, but I am not buying it because he then worked to pass the Veterans Access, Choice and Accountability Act. Why fix something you broke intentionally? I also don’t see how this is a step towards becoming an authoritarian leader. Trump is doing way better at becoming an authoritarian leader than Sanders and he isn’t even trying.
Some OG Source but the context here is, after Das Kapital.
For the sake of this discussion I will agree with you that the original concept of Socialism required an authoritarian leader. Bernie doesn’t claim to be a Socialist, he claims to be a Democratic Socialist.
Capitalism is a system that’s designed to orchestrate the economy of a state.
I don’t understand why we are talking about Capitalism. Did Bernie say he would get rid of it if he could?
But when given power he exercised that power in the same fashion that non-Democratic Socialists of the past have done.
Yes, if Bernie was authoritarian, I would agree. But no one knows that except Bernie. Any political leader can be a sleeper authoritarian. Even George Washington could have been an authoritarian and just waited too long to do anything about it. I can only work on what a leader has said and done, not what is secretly in their head. I haven’t heard or seen anything from Bernie that indicates he is authoritarian.
So your saying Sanders has an anti-government ideology? To say another way, Sanders want to maximize the amount of dismissed problems in the government?
No. What about what I said makes you think that? Sander’s intent is pro-government and pro-grovernment control of healthcare along with a wide range of other economic and social industries. Just because the effect of his actions makes us less likely to want government control of healthcare doesn’t mean that was the intent of his action.
I haven’t heard or seen anything from Bernie that indicates he is authoritarian.
Except for the one time that he was given power over a system and expressed authoritarian tendencies?
I think I see the problem. You and I have different definition of authoritarian.
For me, if Bernie becomes president and get rid of democracy, the house, the senate, and the supreme court and becomes the “supreme” leader of the US, that would be authoritarian.
For you (I think) it if Bernie creates a government reading program to help kids read better is is authoritarian because that would give power to the government regardless if we are a democracy or lead by a “supreme” leader.
Ok, so to be clear, I haven’t seen anything from Bernie to indicate that he is being my definition of authoritarian. So I don’t see an issue. You have been giving me example of Bernie doing and saying things that match your definition of authoritarian, which is quite a lot given he is a Democratic Socialist. You’re confused as to why I don’t see this as a problem. Am I close?
So I think this is one of those situations where we actually agree on what Bernie is about. It’s just that I think we should have reading programs and single payer healthcare and you do not.
I agree that Sanders is a democratic socialist. I am confused as to why you brought this incident up then. I thought you were trying to prove that Sanders was an authoritarian, but it seems like we both agree that this was a mistake he made and not some outcome that he wanted to happen or that was aligned with his ideology.
It’s not clear to me that Socialism explicitly calls for that, maybe I have missed that. But Bernie is a Democratic Socialist. I understand this to mean that democracy would be used to create the laws, not an authoritarian. A similar concept to what the US uses today.
Sorry for the delay been a crazy week.
Emphasis added by me. I’m saying that to a Centrist (and honestly to myself too). Sander’s actions to dismiss problems in a desired government program is aligned with his ideology. And a viewing of the record of Socialism and Socialist thought has seen that same patter arise over and over again.
Some OG Source but the context here is, after Das Kapital. The Socialist ideology takes off. Movements in Marx’s lifetime to “vote in” Socialism arose, in this instance in Germany. Marx criticizes this attempt instead of advocating for revolution and dictatorial control exercised by a smaller group of Socialist leaders eg. the “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” (wikipedia summary that’s easier reading).
Capitalism is a system that’s designed to orchestrate the economy of a state. It offers some suggestions for the content of its society and the organization of its government but it is largely agnostic. And has been successfully used alongside Dictatorships, Republics, and Monarchs alike. Socialism dictates not just the economy of a state, but the makeup and mores of its society along with the organization of its Government. There are many modern Socialists who are led to believe that Socialism is compatible with a modern, Western society and Republic; but it pretty explicitly rejects it. Bernie, I believe, is one of those people. But when given power he exercised that power in the same fashion that non-Democratic Socialists of the past have done. That should be concerning to all people, including Centrists.
No need to apologies, I hope things are going well.
So your saying Sanders has an anti-government ideology? To say another way, Sanders want to maximize the amount of dismissed problems in the government? I mean maybe, but I am not buying it because he then worked to pass the Veterans Access, Choice and Accountability Act. Why fix something you broke intentionally? I also don’t see how this is a step towards becoming an authoritarian leader. Trump is doing way better at becoming an authoritarian leader than Sanders and he isn’t even trying.
For the sake of this discussion I will agree with you that the original concept of Socialism required an authoritarian leader. Bernie doesn’t claim to be a Socialist, he claims to be a Democratic Socialist.
I don’t understand why we are talking about Capitalism. Did Bernie say he would get rid of it if he could?
Yes, if Bernie was authoritarian, I would agree. But no one knows that except Bernie. Any political leader can be a sleeper authoritarian. Even George Washington could have been an authoritarian and just waited too long to do anything about it. I can only work on what a leader has said and done, not what is secretly in their head. I haven’t heard or seen anything from Bernie that indicates he is authoritarian.
No. What about what I said makes you think that? Sander’s intent is pro-government and pro-grovernment control of healthcare along with a wide range of other economic and social industries. Just because the effect of his actions makes us less likely to want government control of healthcare doesn’t mean that was the intent of his action.
Except for the one time that he was given power over a system and expressed authoritarian tendencies?
Ohhhhh!
I think I see the problem. You and I have different definition of authoritarian.
For me, if Bernie becomes president and get rid of democracy, the house, the senate, and the supreme court and becomes the “supreme” leader of the US, that would be authoritarian.
For you (I think) it if Bernie creates a government reading program to help kids read better is is authoritarian because that would give power to the government regardless if we are a democracy or lead by a “supreme” leader.
Ok, so to be clear, I haven’t seen anything from Bernie to indicate that he is being my definition of authoritarian. So I don’t see an issue. You have been giving me example of Bernie doing and saying things that match your definition of authoritarian, which is quite a lot given he is a Democratic Socialist. You’re confused as to why I don’t see this as a problem. Am I close?
So I think this is one of those situations where we actually agree on what Bernie is about. It’s just that I think we should have reading programs and single payer healthcare and you do not.
Shit, I wish I had caught this sooner.
Nice sarcasm.