Protestantism’s central argument is that grace is gifted by faith alone. If someone says otherwise, they are not a protestant.
And before someone tries to bring up the myriad of ‘baptist’ churches which don’t think so, please note that a central tenet of Baptist belief is sola fide.
What happens if you break the 10 commandments and live a life of unrepentant sin? If it’s anything other than spending eternity in heaven with God then guess what…his blessing is conditional
Based on your post I can tell you’ve thought really hard about this.
the Bible does offer rather detailed instructions on how to earn God’s favor
Oh yeah? Can you point me to those because I’d rather do something quick to earn God’s favor than commit daily to living a penitent Christian life. It doesn’t let me do my favorite sins.
and Christians in America do exactly the opposite and then declare themselves vessels of God.
So which is it? Is there “nothing you can do to earn God’s blessing. It’s a gift” or is it “I’d rather do something quick to earn God’s favor than commit daily to living a penitent Christian life”
Because if it’s really a gift, what’s all this effort you’re putting in to “earn God’s favor”?
Because if it’s really a gift, what’s all this effort you’re putting in to “earn God’s favor”?
The life of a Christian is two-fold…
Trying (and failing) to live up to the teachings of Jesus Christ. He lived the perfect human life to sanctify our nature and model how we should live our lives.
Believing in the trinity and the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Living in accordance with the teachings of Christ is a requirement for salvation but not a guarantee. There’s nothing we can do to earn God’s blessing on Earth or in Heaven. The only thing we can guarantee for ourselves is damnation by rejecting Christ and the biblical revelation.
If I earnestly strive to live like Christ and believe him to be God. I will live a life that involves prayer, fasting and almsgiving. A generous life that helps others to the Glory of God. It is only after that life that I will be judged. God has perfect judgement and judges each person according to their means, understanding etc My hope is that God will examine my heart and grant me entrance to the Kingdom of God even though I am most unworthy.
Sounds like a lot of “requirements” and work to do for something that is supposed to be a gift according to you. He can keep his gift and all the strings he’s attached to it. I’ll just live a good life because I’m not a shit person. If that guarantees me eternal damnation because I don’t kiss the ring then I don’t think I would’ve had much fun by his side for eternity anyway. He sounds like a dick.
You realize you’re up against the tried and true no true Scotsman defense, right? You can point out the fallacy. You can present facts and logical arguments. Nothing penetrates the “you’re talking about a few bad apples” argument.
The part I always enjoy is to put any two Christians in a room together and watch them argue until the end of time which of them is the true Christian with the correct interpretation of the infallible word of God from their book. Even as a child I thought an omnipotent God should’ve provided a much clearer instruction manual. But of course, that gets the “he works in mysterious ways” defense.
Yeah, that will be my last reply to that person. Sometimes I can’t help but try to reintroduce some critical thinking back into these peoples’ brains. Unfortunately religious indoctrination since birth is a pretty thick brick wall to break through. It’s sad
To the since birth part, I was raised in a particularly fundamentalist cult/sect/denomination (hint: two high school classmates died in Waco) and attended their schools from first grade through high school.
I graduated some thirty four years ago.
Looking at classmates today in our fifties, the delineation is interesting. All of us either completely abandoned religion to the point of hostility toward it or became zealous adherents to it. Very little middle ground.
Being told you’ll never measure up to God’s expectations all your life but he loves you if you try really hard is basically the same as being in an emotionally abusive relationship.
The only issue is that obeying God is literally the best thing you can do for yourself emotionally or otherwise. It will give meaning, purpose and structure to your life, provide an instant community and, while we rarely shirk sin entirely, a Christian life can break how beholden we are to the sin and idols in our life. Drugs/alcohol, promiscuity, pornography etc All these things are abused in our culture and you can see how it affects us by looking at the state of things outside your window. Moral and cultural decay caused by pursuit of self instead of God.
Returning to church and committing daily to Christ is by far the best thing that’s ever happened to me. God loves us.
It will give meaning, purpose and structure to your life
The meaning of life is what you make it. I don’t need God to give me purpose.
provide an instant community
I was raised catholic and this is a valid point. The issue is it’s a community gathered around harmful ideas.
As for the rest, the placebo effect is scientifically proven to work. I have absolutely no doubt that believing in a higher power helps you beat addiction, etc. I don’t think that justifies the harm organized religion has caused, particularly recently. Does God want to force 10 year olds to give birth? Because that’s what’s happening in his name.
Oh yeah? Can you point me to those because I’d rather do something quick to earn God’s favor than commit daily to living a penitent Christian life. It doesn’t let me do my favorite sins.
17 “Why ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep[b] the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” the man asked.
And Jesus replied: “‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. 19 Honor your father and mother. Love your neighbor as yourself.’[c]”
20 “I’ve obeyed all these commandments,” the young man replied. “What else must I do?”
21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 But when the young man heard this, he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Now, many people make up many justifications about how they don’t need to get rid of their possessions, or they don’t need to really help that guy. But the text is pretty clear to me. If you see a homeless person on the street, per the text, you should help them get shelter. Most people don’t do that.
Prayer, fasting and almsgiving are pillars of the Christian life. The two scriptures you quoted are great examples of why this is the case.
To the original point though if I gave all my possessions away or helped my neighbor and “kept score” like a Pharisee it’s all for naught. Works won’t get you to heaven yet faith without works is dead.
There’s nothing you can do to earn God’s blessing. It’s a gift.
There’s literally a list of 10 commandments you have to follow or be cursed to hell forever. Also the unwritten 11th commandment “don’t be gay”
Protestantism’s central argument is that grace is gifted by faith alone. If someone says otherwise, they are not a protestant.
And before someone tries to bring up the myriad of ‘baptist’ churches which don’t think so, please note that a central tenet of Baptist belief is sola fide.
That’s just sola fide. There’s also sola scriptura, to which GP is referring.
You don’t understand basic theology.
I really don’t, it doesn’t make any sense at all, per my previous comment.
They’re saying the opposite; that it doesn’t make sense so they don’t understand it.
What happens if you break the 10 commandments and live a life of unrepentant sin? If it’s anything other than spending eternity in heaven with God then guess what…his blessing is conditional
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Based on your post I can tell you’ve thought really hard about this.
Oh yeah? Can you point me to those because I’d rather do something quick to earn God’s favor than commit daily to living a penitent Christian life. It doesn’t let me do my favorite sins.
All [X] do [Y]. 🤪
So which is it? Is there “nothing you can do to earn God’s blessing. It’s a gift” or is it “I’d rather do something quick to earn God’s favor than commit daily to living a penitent Christian life”
Because if it’s really a gift, what’s all this effort you’re putting in to “earn God’s favor”?
The life of a Christian is two-fold…
Living in accordance with the teachings of Christ is a requirement for salvation but not a guarantee. There’s nothing we can do to earn God’s blessing on Earth or in Heaven. The only thing we can guarantee for ourselves is damnation by rejecting Christ and the biblical revelation.
If I earnestly strive to live like Christ and believe him to be God. I will live a life that involves prayer, fasting and almsgiving. A generous life that helps others to the Glory of God. It is only after that life that I will be judged. God has perfect judgement and judges each person according to their means, understanding etc My hope is that God will examine my heart and grant me entrance to the Kingdom of God even though I am most unworthy.
Sounds like a lot of “requirements” and work to do for something that is supposed to be a gift according to you. He can keep his gift and all the strings he’s attached to it. I’ll just live a good life because I’m not a shit person. If that guarantees me eternal damnation because I don’t kiss the ring then I don’t think I would’ve had much fun by his side for eternity anyway. He sounds like a dick.
You realize you’re up against the tried and true no true Scotsman defense, right? You can point out the fallacy. You can present facts and logical arguments. Nothing penetrates the “you’re talking about a few bad apples” argument.
The part I always enjoy is to put any two Christians in a room together and watch them argue until the end of time which of them is the true Christian with the correct interpretation of the infallible word of God from their book. Even as a child I thought an omnipotent God should’ve provided a much clearer instruction manual. But of course, that gets the “he works in mysterious ways” defense.
Yeah, that will be my last reply to that person. Sometimes I can’t help but try to reintroduce some critical thinking back into these peoples’ brains. Unfortunately religious indoctrination since birth is a pretty thick brick wall to break through. It’s sad
To the since birth part, I was raised in a particularly fundamentalist cult/sect/denomination (hint: two high school classmates died in Waco) and attended their schools from first grade through high school.
I graduated some thirty four years ago.
Looking at classmates today in our fifties, the delineation is interesting. All of us either completely abandoned religion to the point of hostility toward it or became zealous adherents to it. Very little middle ground.
Being told you’ll never measure up to God’s expectations all your life but he loves you if you try really hard is basically the same as being in an emotionally abusive relationship.
Thank you Sigmund Freud.
The only issue is that obeying God is literally the best thing you can do for yourself emotionally or otherwise. It will give meaning, purpose and structure to your life, provide an instant community and, while we rarely shirk sin entirely, a Christian life can break how beholden we are to the sin and idols in our life. Drugs/alcohol, promiscuity, pornography etc All these things are abused in our culture and you can see how it affects us by looking at the state of things outside your window. Moral and cultural decay caused by pursuit of self instead of God.
Returning to church and committing daily to Christ is by far the best thing that’s ever happened to me. God loves us.
The meaning of life is what you make it. I don’t need God to give me purpose.
I was raised catholic and this is a valid point. The issue is it’s a community gathered around harmful ideas.
As for the rest, the placebo effect is scientifically proven to work. I have absolutely no doubt that believing in a higher power helps you beat addiction, etc. I don’t think that justifies the harm organized religion has caused, particularly recently. Does God want to force 10 year olds to give birth? Because that’s what’s happening in his name.
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I don’t have to try. I fail without even thinking about it lol.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew 19:16-30&version=NLT
Also, https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke 10:25-37&version=NIV
Now, many people make up many justifications about how they don’t need to get rid of their possessions, or they don’t need to really help that guy. But the text is pretty clear to me. If you see a homeless person on the street, per the text, you should help them get shelter. Most people don’t do that.
Prayer, fasting and almsgiving are pillars of the Christian life. The two scriptures you quoted are great examples of why this is the case.
To the original point though if I gave all my possessions away or helped my neighbor and “kept score” like a Pharisee it’s all for naught. Works won’t get you to heaven yet faith without works is dead.