All of it is shit, right?
As a leftist I do not like guns. I guess that is the lie.
Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered. Any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.
To me leftists are revolutionary. I’m curious to know how you’re going to be part of a revolution without an actual threat to power.
I’m a leftist who doesn’t much care for guns but I’ll use one if I fucking have to.
There are reformist and pacifist leftists too (like democratic socialists, syndicalists, anarcho-pacifists), not that I agree with any of them completely.
Leftism at its simplest definition is just opposing social hierarchy (which right wing ideologies like capitalism, fascism, and monarchism promote) in favor of socialism (which can also include communism, anarchism, and syndicalism).
It’s because leftism is so broad with differing methods that many leftists hate each other. If you narrow down the definition of leftist to only your own political beliefs, then there wouldn’t be much leftists to hate.
Reformism is liberal, you won’t be able to reform capitalists within the system they created and control.
I agree that it’s an ineffective method, but they are still considered leftists. Marx refers to them as utopian socialists.
Liberal meme detected
Why tell things apart that are the same thing?
The meme suggest they are not, and to be fair they do have some differing points. But really only libs think it’s some very important point to not lump conservatists with them for their support of capitalism, which is also the moment where socialists do usually lump them.
I read it as “we are aware that these two ideologies are different and frankly they are both such absolute garbage that we don’t really care to distinguish them all that much.”
It’s to show that there is literacy and understanding of nuance there, but that at the end of the day it’s more of a “fun fact” when the centrists keep supporting the conservatives as their general default. Even when Liberals do nothing is about how that nothing is consistently helping the far-right get away with shit while aggressively discouraging progressive change.
Conservatives are nationalist morons who are trying to conserve and bring back a lot of the systems that let low-quality privileged people in their given society keep all the power. Liberals don’t have hating minorites as a policy goal but they also refuse to believe that doing nothing will not, in fact, make up for hundreds of years of systemic issues. Conservatives will try to fix capitalism by ethnic minorities and Liberals will try to fix by getting rid of rules which “might stifle economic expansion”. Neither of those ideologies are worth anything though they are different.
Where is the lie
“Leftists”
“the”
Some people could do with a political compass. https://www.politicalcompass.org/ For a start.
The political compass is what politics looks like from a liberal perspective. It has no actual bearing on the reality of political thought, and has been disastrous for those trying to understand politics for the first time.
Despite its flaws (which are not what you’ve described), its 2 dimensions is still a vast improvement over the overly conflationary reductivism of linear depictions, or worse 1-bit binary.
The flaws are definitely in line with what I described, and more. Trying to describe left and right as a spectrun is already horribly reductive, trying to pretend “authoritarian” and “libertarian” is a spectrum is even worse. ideologies can be generally described as right or left depending on if they uphold capitalism or socialism, beyond that they are best compared by their actual stances and not a farcical grid.
The flaws are definitely in line with what I described, and more.
Sounds like naive realism.
Sounds like I know what I meant, and you saying “you’re wrong” has done nothing to challenge that.
Political compass lol
5·9 hours agoI support Labour Colonies.
That makes me LibLeft
So leftist hate leftist? And they love guns?
Seems accurate to me.
I think the joke is all the inner fighting between different leftist ideas and sects.
Oh, you mean like the inner fighting between the right groups between different rightist ideas and sects?
The far right loves a strong man, and by definition there can be only one of those, prefers when “the natural order” is followed, and thinks the ends always justify the means. That keeps them pretty cohesive with the establishment right, who are making buckets of money under the system as it is now and are okay with just about anything else as long as that doesn’t change. When they fight, it’s because the far right is trying to do something stupid enough that the establishment thinks it risks their money or power, or the establishment is holding the far right back from fully implementing their “natural order” worldview, but there’s a lot of overlap where both can be happy, because the establishment really has no morals at all and are happy to use the far right to gain power if all they have to do is throw them some red meat every once in a while.
The left’s a very different story. On the far left, people are very principled, to the point where compromise or partial wins feel hollow because the only real win would be the entire principle being adopted en masse. It makes it harder to work together, because even groups with the same goals can get frustrated by the way the other one is doing it, or because the other group is going to keep going while the other wants to stop sooner. And the establishment left has a fair amount in common with the establishment right, they find the right’s goals uncouth and mean, but they do still fundamentally believe in capitalism and don’t want to upend the system. That leaves a lot less common ground and a lot more infighting overall.
What are you talking about? I’ve never read anything in corporate medias about inner fighting between rightists. On the other hand I read a lot about leftist infighting and how that mean they can’t be trusted.
For instance trump, musk and mtg come from different backgrounds and they get along very well don’t they?
You don’t think right wing media would want to downplay the infighting that happens constantly?
The biggest difference between left infighting and right infighting is that the left will disagree with each other but still try to work together for the greater good, generally. But the right will stab each and every one of their peers in the back if it would benefit them personally in some way. They have no loyalty to anything but money and personal gain.
the more you disagree the more it is apparent, I vote to delete this violent meme
I like leftists in general, even moderat ones are miles better than roghtwing morons. likes guns is the lie tho. Leftists might need guns to fight against nazis but its a necessity not enjoyment.
Some of us like guns. SRA members are very friendly and whether you want a place to learn the basics without MAGA hats around or you actually end up enjoying improving your skill we are here for you. Enjoying firearms is pretty fucking nerdy. The conservative firearms dudes are more interested in getting drunk and complaining about their wives while holding something that makes them feel safe. At least initially. Some of them end up enjoying it for the same reasons leftist do. Because they’re nerds. You listen to two people talk about firearms for 5 minutes and anime nerds will sound normal by comparison. I think leftist nerds could really bring some conservative gun nerds left if there were more of us.
TDLR: there are those that are firearms nerds and there are those that like owning a gun because they are afraid of going outside. Both exist on the left and right. But the former is almost exclusively right wing.
Quick, name a revolution resulting in decolonization or AES that didn’t involve guns? I’ll wait forever.
Quick find a person, who wants armed conflict instead of peaceful resolution. Nobody wants to die in violence its sometimes a necessity, but if you enjoy shooting people your not left.
Shooting people? Dude, you can shoot targets for fun. It is literally an Olympic sport. People like guns because they are fun to shoot all over the world and I’m not American. Maybe you don’t like guns but trust me when I say guns and marksmanship are normal and popular hobbies, you just need a license where I live lol
People also like guns because it helps them feel like a hero in their fantasies that require guns due to some unknown threat.
I’m sure plenty of them like target shooting, but don’t kid yourself that that isn’t also likely fuelling their fantasies of having a justified reason to use the gun on another person. Surely it’s just coincidence that shooting ranges are using humanoid shapes for those targets.
For what purpose ultimately do you think being a good marksman would actually be used for?
They call it target practice for a reason, and it’s not for shooting more range targets.
you like guns
No, they’re a necessary tool for change.
So you like guns because they provide change.
No, I’d prefer if we could have change without having to shoot people.
Who said anything about shooting people? They’re just fun range toys.
My friend, it’s ok to be wrong. The more you shuffle goal posts around the more foolish your argument looks. Nobody once said that guns or marksmanship aren’t normal hobbies, they said leftists don’t inherently like guns. Not even that leftists specifically don’t like guns.
I’m not wrong. Moving goalposts lol, you’re insufferable. Lots of people like guns but also you are reading this fucking meme so literally, fuck off
In what way does this detract from what they said?
“We don’t like guns, we need them”
“Oh yeah, well what about the times you needed guns?”
People all over the world like guns. Marksmanship is literally an Olympic sport. It is fun to shoot targets and clay pigeons and you should try it.
It is fun to shoot targets and clay pigeons and you should try it.
I go to the range every week to shoot my collection of guns. You and I liking guns due to them being fun does not mean leftists as a whole need to enjoy them.
Literally every leftist org I’ve ever been around likes guns and goes shooting. You have to be prepared and liking guns isn’t some horrible thing with American consequences. I don’t even live in America, people have guns here and we don’t have school shootings.
You have to be prepared and liking guns isn’t some horrible thing with American consequences.
Again… Nobody is arguing that this isn’t true…
… Just that every leftist does not have to like guns. Don’t know why this is so hard a concept.
Leftists don’t have to hate leftists. We could learn to celebrate each other.
Fuck you, pal!
i don’t hate leftists, it’s the libs who hate me.
All leftists are my comrades!
Except for those damn Trostskyists!
That would make me deeply happy, and significantly increase our ability to accomplish any of the changes we’d like to see in the world
Hey, don’t do that. We need to keep pushing the meme of lefist infighting harder and harder so the CIA ops get their paycheck. Are you not considering them? Are they not exploited labor of the capitalist class too? PLEASE RECONSIDER!
I feel like purity testing has been less of a problem lately, due to the urgency of… pretty much everything.
Increases of purity testing is a symptom of being ineffectual. It is frustrating being a socialist when things fall apart and there are no real plans of action.
What do people do when they feel powerless?
Any action you take in organization is a positive. I ask any of my “no kings” friends to go out and find a protest or day to contribute to a DSA or PSL event (among others but those are the ones nationwide) before the next “no kings” day. If 10% the “no kings day liberals” went out and did something between now and then we’d have a massive increase in support each day. And that is a win for me. Don’t try to change the world. Change your neighborhood and find solidarity and purpose in getting others to do the same.
You don’t have to feel powerful to not feel powerless. Anyone that feels powerless hasn’t been organizing.
History is not made by the actions of “great men”. It is made by those that plant seeds for trees that they will never enjoy the shade of. Do what you are capable of doing in your community and your local organizations. Do not be disheartened by the decades in which “nothing happens” because the “weeks in which decades happen” are built upon those times.
I swear. If all the leftist online stopped sitting at home being “informed” of the world politics and just got to the weekend thinking “Damn, i need to listen to <favorite political commentator>, i was so busy organizing with <local org> that I didn’t have time”. We’d all be in a better place. And the political commentator might even start mentioning your community.
I like to go outside and fix stuff, or lay in bed analyzing what ive seen, but I dont need anyone’s permission.
Yeah my purity test is whether youre actually helping.
Election? Committee meeting? Sending commissars to foodnotbombs? Unhelpful.
Let’s take a trip to harbor freight, and express our love for one another.
Non-tendency leftists
tell that to the maoists and the stalinists. lol
I’m sorry, do commies not believing in US department of state propaganda bother you?
— every single time i forget to add a </snark> tag…
No but see theyll work with anyone who doesn’t betray them by saying horrible capitalist propaganda like the party line from five minutes ago before they left for the bathroom.
Conservatives and liberals should be one circle called liberals with a smaller circle inside called “conservatives: the most hated liberals”
Conservatives and liberals should be one circle called liberals with a smaller circle inside called “conservatives: the most hated liberals”
*gestures at “Leftists don’t bother telling conservatives and liberals apart.”*
You’re just proving the chart accurate.
They’re right when it comes to politicians though. They both cater to billionaires and corporations, they both support bombing random ass countries, they both support sanctioning Cuba, etc. Not shaming anyone who votes for liberals, because they’re less bad domestically, but even then they’re constantly moving right, now throwing trans people under the bus and such.
In terms of ideology, both believe in capitalism and US hegemony first and foremost.
I’d argue liberal voters are more likely to be decent people, but their politicians aren’t very different, and that’s normally what we think when we talk about just how similar they are. Hell, even among liberal voters I find their support for the US military appalling.
I kinda see liberals as generally fitting into two categories.
One is straight up horrible people who just want to maintain a decent image. (This includes like 99% of the politicians)
Two is generally well meaning people who just aren’t that politically savvy, and they hear scary stories about the “far right” and “radical left” so they figure “somewhere in the middle” must be the sweet spot.
Gotta love those folks. We could have Earth at one end, the Sun on the other, and they might pick a spot 46 million miles out in space to find the middle way.
I don’t think leftist like guns, but otherwise makes sense.
i wouldn´t state i “like” guns, i certainly know how to use them - just in case, one might say although i HIGHLY doubt i´ll ever need this skill.
also: i can´t recount a socialist revolution that was won without arms.
Depends on what kind of leftist.
I don’t think most like USA style gun culture, nor are they against regulated gun ownership.
In most cases they become more anti-gun in post-revolutionary society but are more pro-gun when faced with the threat of living under fascist rule or wanting to one day organize a revolution.
It doesn’t really help when you are up against an army of fascists who also have guns.
So: when in danger, we need deadly force. When not in danger, we don’t.
Crazy.
The crazy thing is successful armed uprising in the name of these left-wing movements generally ended up with fascist leadership.
I think in theory leftism isn’t interested in guns, but obviously as a slave accepting your chains won’t evoke change. Problem is guns are not very effective against the state military apparatuses in the modern world now. Not unless those militaries mutiny.
No, what happens is left wing solution is successful, and the ensuing governments are thoroughly demonized and slandered via a complex propaganda apparatus.
Which ones? Cuba is alright I guess.
Cuba, Vietnam, the PRC, USSR, etc. Cuba is similar to these other countries in economic model and democratic structure, which is why they have all seen good success, especially compared to peer countries.
generally ended up with fascist leadership.
Huh? I think you’re confusing authoritarianism and fascism, you may not like either - but they are different things.
I’m not. Fascism is a variant of authoritarianism, and describes very well how the USSR, China, and other successful so-called communisms have operated.
“Fascism is characterized by support for a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived interest of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.” -Wikipedia
I believe in left wing ideology, it’s just only ever seemed to emerge successfully from non-violent system-internal populism. Changing of hearts and minds in other words. Never through violence. Which makes sense, because proper humanitarian leftism is obviously antithetical to ends justify the means approaches to societal problem solving.
This is incorrect. Not only is your characterization of fascism oversimplified, it doesn’t actually apply to actually existing socialism (AES).
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AES states have not had dictators. In all socialist states, the governmental structure has been collectivized and democratic. Holding government positions for a longer period of time than capitalist democracies doesn’t make a country a dictatorship.
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Socialist states, with their more collectivized control, have had more evenly spread decisionmaling power than capitalist states.
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Millitarism is correct, all lasting socialist states have had a necessity to build up at minimum defensive armies. The USSR was invaded by over a dozen countries at its inception.
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Forcible suppression of opposition is technically correct, but fascism has always suppressed the working classes while socialist states have suppressed the capitalist class and landlords, fascists, etc. This erasure of class distinctions from the definition of fascism is a factor of wikipedia’s liberal bias.
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The belief in class systems technically counts as a social hierarchy, but the key difference is that socialist states work towards abolishing class, while fascist states uphold class and uphold racial supremacy.
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Subordination of the individual to the many technically applies, but for fascism it refers to submission to a capitalist dictatorship for private profits whereas for socialism it refers to working class unity to meet the needs of all.
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Socialism is a collectivized form of economic management, fascism’s strong state control was in the interest of crushing working class organization and merging the state with corporate interests.
I believe in left wing ideology, it’s just only ever seemed to emerge successfully from non-violent system-internal populism.
Fundamentally ahistorical. All meaningful working class victories have arrived through either direct violence, ie revolution, or the threat of violence, ie mass protests and civil unrest.
Thanks for laying it out Cowbee. I got as far as thinking “The key difference is that the authority in a Socialist state is derived from a robust democracy” before deciding it wasn’t worth it lmao
No worries! 🫡
Name one AES state that isn’t authoritarian, and suppressing of numerous human rights and dignities, that a greater percentage of the population enjoys in the west.
From what I can tell, few people are lining up to move to these countries, now or in the past. That suggests something isn’t working.
AES states have their authority under the control of the working class, and wield it against capitalists, imperialists, landlords, and fascists. Capitalist states wield their authority against the working classes, and the imperialist west wields their authority globally against the global south to super-exploit for super profits. It isn’t that western countries have better human rights than AES countries, the opposite is true. What the west has is the spoils of imperialism, plundering the global south. AES states don’t have that.
A good example of this in action is people’s perceptions towards their democracy in China, compared to the US and UK:
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People forget that not everyone on Lemmy are from the States, because where I am from leftists are usually really anti-gun.
In the states it also varies a lot. You have groups like the the socialist rifle association, but lots of american leftists are also anti-gun, there’s a range of views on the subject.
I would guess its the majority of american leftists that are anti-gun, but I could certainly be mistaken
I’m an American leftist who isn’t overly fond of guns, but the way I see it, our choices are:
- The fascists are the only ones with guns
- The fascists aren’t the only ones with guns
Outside of the US there are also differing opinions. I support guns for self defense. I don’t like guns, but who am I to tell marginalized people to stay unarmed as the state tramples over them.
Quick, name a revolution resulting in decolonization or AES that didn’t involve guns? I’ll wait forever.
I’m just wondering what the Advanced Encryption Standard has to do with guns or revolutions
Actually Existing Socialism, ie the former USSR and current Cuba, PRC, Vietnam, etc.
Not my socialism.
"… we are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality;… " – Mikhail Bakunin
Cool, except socialism in AES has brought liberty to the working class. Sloganeering isn’t a substitute for a point.
There is a nuance between knowing that no revolution was made without arms and “loving guns”… If I ever have to use one, I know I won’t love it.
Well if you think that people and leftists don’t like guns then I guess you’ve never been to India or Mexico
Rule number (i forgot which number) of the internet is that everyone is a white, american, male until proven otherwise.
Prominent leftist ideology and writers don’t glorify gun ownership or turn them into identity pieces, but they absolutely do see their value for attaining and protecting rights. A lot more leftists own guns than people realize, they just don’t advertise it to threaten and intimidate like fascists do. Many of our rights and freedoms only came about because people were willing to actually fight for them. This is a famous Marx quote: Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.
There’s no putting the cat back in the bag, so we may as well regulate their access and provide education and training for their use before they can be owned, as well as how to effectively avoid their use in the case of defense, and mitigate the damage in the aftermath of their use.
Many of our rights and freedoms only came about because people were willing to actually fight for them.
Just “many?” Try to name one that didn’t!
I don’t need to, as we aren’t disagreeing. Same spirit, difference in phrasing. Everything is good, no need to infight
The right to have a popup on every website asking if you’d like to accept or decline cookies. 😂 (j/k)
The middle should say circlejerking losers cuz they all love feeding into the echo chamber and at the end of the day nobody wins because none of them are willing to entertain the idea that they might be wrong so the red/blue system wins by pitting them against each other.
Leftists aren’t in the red blue system
Everybody is in the red blue system unless they don’t vote.
Wait until you find out about internationalism, other countries outside of the US, or leftist organization and agitation in parallel to liberal elections
Pretty sure this post is focused on US. Wait til you learn that not everybody in the world cares about Trump.
I vote green.
Libertarian Left.
Not falling for the purple party.
Leftists aren’t represented in the red blue system*
Do they vote?
Sometimes but it does not mean their politics are represented
