Maybe I’ve been on lemmy too long. So confused on who liberals are anymore.
it comes down to capitalism vs socialism.
progressive + capitalist = liberal
progressive + socialist = leftist
Well. That one makes sense. So I’m leftist…… prepares for hate
leftist is pretty vague still because others are leftist too but each other’s mortal enemies like like anarchists and communists.
you have to study political theories to understand what they actually mean. most people calling themselves leftist in the united states are democrat-socialist because they don’t understand what socialism is due to not reading any sort of political theory.
Well, that, yes, and McArthysm and descendants.
Lemmy is primarily developed by Marxist-Leninists, and we have a ton of Marxists and anarchists in general. You aren’t going to get hate for being a leftist unless you’re on a more liberal instance.
I don’t think you’ll get hate for being a leftist on Lemmy.
Depends on instance and community, but in general I agree.
US politics is weird. Liberal in the rest of the world is more aligned to socialism than capitalism. Leftist is way more extreme.
Liberal in the rest of the world is more aligned to socialism
I agree that US political vocabulary is weird. But this characterization just isn’t true at all.
For example, in Japan, the Liberal Democratic Party is ideologically conservative. Same story with the Australian Liberal Party.
Whereas Liberalism in the US is associated with the left of the Overton Window.
9·19 days agoThe left of the US overtone window is very much right wing.
Correct, but your average yank still thinks of that as “left”
Same with the British liberal party
Liberalism isn’t aligned to socialism anywhere, socialism is antithetical to liberalism. Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism, which is diametrically opposed to socialism.
That is classical liberalism. It doesn’t reflect modern liberal ideals which have aligned more with socialism, and a lot of european parties regularly form coalitions with socialist or social-democratic parties because their ideals align so often in modern times.
Liberalism cannot align with socialism, they are diametrically opposed. Liberalism supports private property while socialism supports public ownership of property. Social Democracy is a subset of liberalism. “Modern liberalism” is just maintaining capitalism.
a liberal in the united states is a centrist in the rest of the world.
a leftist in the united states is a liberal in the rest of the world.
the united states is MUCH more conservative that the rest of the world
Indeed. I think I need to find a less US dominated instance maybe.
Lemmy.ml is less US-dominated than other general instances, though you can find country-specific instances.
Liberal means you support capitalist rule over society, and also their preferred model of governance (bourgeios parliamentarism / capitalist dictatorship) as being “superior” to any alternatives, and especially the existing socialist alternatives.
Also since this model was first adopted by three colonialist western countries (UK, US, and Netherlands) in the 1700s, and adopted by most of western europe shortly after, it mostly coincides with a strong belief in white / western supremacy, as being the only “legitimate” form of governance.
The best book I could recommend here, is Losurdo’s Liberalism - A counter history.
Awesome, I’ll have to check out that book, thanks!
No probs! There’s an audiobook of it here also.
Liberalists believe in a secular ideology where all humans are equal but white people are the most equal.
This. Never understood the term in the first place, is this something I’m not american enough to understand? Isn’t there a substantial difference between right-liberal and left-liberal?
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism, so everyone supporting capitalism is technically a liberal.
There are liberals and leftists and left leaning and libtards and centrists and left leaning center and center leaning left and progressives and I have no clue what’s going onnnnnnnnn
ableist slur
Libtard? If it’s that, I’m sorry. I threw that in as a joke. And if it’s indeed ableist…. I mean I guess it’s close to the r word, so I’m sorry that was dumb. If it’s something else…. I don’t know what.
I mean I guess it’s close to the r word,
It’s specifically a portmanteau of “liberal” and the r-word
And they all hate each other.
Truth. But… like…. The are are running fucking wild_ so can we maybe put up some sort of resistance to that? No? :( ugh. Fuck it, let’s just cut to civil war or whatever. Should I get my life on track or are we collapsing?
Join an org like PSL!
After looking at where my views lie on the political spectrum, I have determined that I am an abomination.
Samesies bother/sister/comrade
Same. I have an identity crisis myself now too.
Essentially, liberals are pro-capitalism, and leftists are pro-socialism.
In all fairness, a liberal is just a Nazi that has never actually experienced suffering before.
So liberals are nazis now? I’ll pen that in under alt-right nationalists, republicans, conservatives in general, democrats…
Like seriously, we are seriously watering down the word Nazi by just labeling everyone we don’t like as a racist supporter of fascism. Besides, how can every blue state and blue city be riddled with Nazis if they are the one’s constantly complaining that our government is devolving into an authoritarian state? RIDDLE ME!!
Baffling how this got downvoted to lemmy’s equivalent of oblivion with no rebuttals by anyone, you’re absolutely right.
There were several rebuttals, you just can’t see them. Plus, the link between liberalism and fascism is well-established, both are capitalist ideologies, and since capitalism decays, liberalism leads to fascism.
That is such a shoddy argument. Communism leads to fascism, we have examples. Socialism leads to fascism, we have examples. Monarchy leads to fascism, we have examples. ALL political schemes can lead to fascism, and it has everything to do with the pursuit of power by a few and very little to do with the system of governance itself. Of course Capitalism can lead to fascism; where ever there is fair compromise to be exploited there will be an opportunity for fascism.
Also, I didn’t see any other replies to my comment. Unless you think I’m going to stalk the person I replied to and nag them to reply to me directly, I don’t think that counts :/
Fascism is specifically a bourgeois ideology that emerges when property rights are in danger and the ruling class needs to assert itself. Fascism isn’t just “when the government does stuff I don’t like,” it’s an irrational ideology that emerges out of the rational interests of the bourgeoisie when capitalism is in crisis.
I believe you missed @[email protected]’s comment.
Hmm, that’s interesting. I can’t find that definition for fascism anywhere, but I’m not going to dismiss it just because a few dictionaries don’t align perfectly. I’ll do some digging and see if I can find the historical context and first-use cases.
I am curious what parts of China are your friends from? I mostly hang out with people from Sichuan, with one friend from a village called Urumqi(I have no idea where that is though). China is a big place, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a different regard for the government region-to-region.
As for fascism, Wikipedia pretty clearly puts it at a far-right ideology, one that first appeared in Italy with Mussolini. I don’t really put too much stock in Wikipedia vs books on the subject, but I’m not really aware of any non-far-right version of fascism.
Urumqi is in Xinjiang, seems cool to visit! Would love to. Most of my Chinese friends are online, so they don’t really say where they are from (neither do I), but I’d expect somewhere near the coast or more populous like Congqing or Chengdu, Shangai, etc.
There appear to be a vast number of iberals who are indeed raging angry by the murders, represented by people wearing the Liberal badge and not reported and not reflected.
No elected liberal leader has decried this ongoing genocide. Every single one supports Israel, and other settler colonial projects just like it. Liberal countries have been the main perpetrators of colonialism in the modern era, so this is nothing surprising.
Have to upvote you on this truth
So vote against them and teach them a lesson.
Bourgeois democracy (ie capitalist dictatorship) is a rigged game, you can’t beat capitalists at a game where they stack the candidates / players.
Even the ancient greeks knew that representative “democracy” based on elections always results in an aristrocracy and not democracy, because wealthy / upper class candidates and families are the only ones who have enough money to fund their campaigns and win the popularity contest, and then run the governments in the interests of their own class.
It serves as a distracting theatre piece / reality tv show, gives the illusion of democracy, platforms the reactionary views of the ruling class, and builds consent for the system itself.
Marxists rediscovered that by the 1800s, and liberals can’t wrap their heads around it in 2025.
Even alternative voting systems don’t make a difference, that just makes the candidate stacking more expensive. Whether in japan, australia, the UK, France, bourgeios parliamentarism has proven to be the safest and most stable shell for capitalist dictatorship.
Democracy fucking sucks. However, authoritarianism is so much worse.
Bourgeois democracy (ie capitalist dictatorship
I don’t think you know what a dictatorship is. The term you’re looking for is oligarchy.
We tried that already, they still won the election,
ah yes, not all liberals
Won’t argue with you on that one.
I think you have a typo. Libs don’t support Israel in anything.
🤣
I bet you think Kampala Harris is a marxist
No but she isn’t a fascist either.
The genocide enabler is not a fascist?
what private, idiosyncratic definition of fascism do you hold that does not implicate her as being a fascist?
