The real source of the problem. If we had done regular updating of the Constitution like some of the Founders wanted we wouldn’t still be arguing over if 18th century phrasing still applies.
Honestly at this point, if somebody’s best criticism is something is “unconstitutional”, it’s tough to not question why their best defense is a 250 year old piece of paper that was never meant to be dogmatic.
The real problem is enshrining so many explicit rights in the constitution to begin with. The American constitutional framers couldn’t have known better because they were so early to do it they didn’t really have a model to follow, but I think history has shown that it was an error.
When Australia came to framing its constitution over the last decade of the 19th century, they had the benefit of looking at all the countries that came before, and considered putting a bill of rights into the Australian constitution and made a deliberate decision not to. It’s better for the legislature to decide what’s right for the current conditions than to be stuck with trying to interpret some text from a century ago in a completely different context. We have the benefit of a much, much less politicised judiciary as a result.
Example: the right to free speech is explicit a good and pretty well irrevocable thing, however some constraints such as using a public space to promote hate, speech meant to cause mass panic or harm or similar abuses are not protected as an exception to the broad basic right.
A part of the issue with the second is the population is so fiercely militaristic (we make such a monument of our military as being the greatest of heros) and individualistic that people will twist the wording any way they like to claim they should have the right to a tank rather than to thin what is reasonable for the general population.
Then there are the folks thinking they can revolt against a tyrannical government armed with globe covering drones because they have 100 rifles in their basement, but those are more especially deluded exceptions.
You act like human nature has changed. Crimes still occur and the right and ability to defend yourself and your property is still very much relevant. What is your opinion of the police? Do you trust them to come and protect you if someone breaks into your house, or do you expect them to come and shoot you?
I seem to read this as you thinking I’m not in favor of gun ownership, just because I suggest clarifying the main rule that gives that right that we still argue about its meaning today. If it was clearer, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
I did think that since it’s a standard basis for arguing against the 2nd. The only issue with the language is people ignoring the separation between the justification of the right and the right itself. It doesn’t matter what they said the right was for, whether it be for self defense or a militia for defense of the nation. The right stands on its own as the right to keep and bear arms.
And that is how a document for rights turns into scripture. “It doesn’t matter why the words say what they say, the words are holy and unchangeable.” The Founders themselves would disagree with your assessment, they said as much that the Constitution is imperfect and can’t possibly predict the needs for the future.
As for the idea that someone questioning the Second Amendment must be against gun ownership, that shows the echo chamber you’re coming from. So many gun owners are left wing/liberal/socialist/whatever label you want, but aren’t as vocal as the right because they understand that with ownership of dangerous things comes responsibility and regulation. Sure seems like a parallel with how the right views other things too…they only like regulation when it works in favor of their beliefs, not for the greater good of the public.
The real source of the problem. If we had done regular updating of the Constitution like some of the Founders wanted we wouldn’t still be arguing over if 18th century phrasing still applies.
Honestly at this point, if somebody’s best criticism is something is “unconstitutional”, it’s tough to not question why their best defense is a 250 year old piece of paper that was never meant to be dogmatic.
Oh come on. Everyone gets a vote now. If you suppress someone’s vote, it’s unconstitutional.
14th, 1868
edit: or shit: 26th, 1971
14th what?
Oh, you mean the 14th Amendment, as in the document can be updated and changed.
The real problem is enshrining so many explicit rights in the constitution to begin with. The American constitutional framers couldn’t have known better because they were so early to do it they didn’t really have a model to follow, but I think history has shown that it was an error.
When Australia came to framing its constitution over the last decade of the 19th century, they had the benefit of looking at all the countries that came before, and considered putting a bill of rights into the Australian constitution and made a deliberate decision not to. It’s better for the legislature to decide what’s right for the current conditions than to be stuck with trying to interpret some text from a century ago in a completely different context. We have the benefit of a much, much less politicised judiciary as a result.
Explicit isn’t so much a problem, but nuance.
Example: the right to free speech is explicit a good and pretty well irrevocable thing, however some constraints such as using a public space to promote hate, speech meant to cause mass panic or harm or similar abuses are not protected as an exception to the broad basic right.
A part of the issue with the second is the population is so fiercely militaristic (we make such a monument of our military as being the greatest of heros) and individualistic that people will twist the wording any way they like to claim they should have the right to a tank rather than to thin what is reasonable for the general population.
Then there are the folks thinking they can revolt against a tyrannical government armed with globe covering drones because they have 100 rifles in their basement, but those are more especially deluded exceptions.
You act like human nature has changed. Crimes still occur and the right and ability to defend yourself and your property is still very much relevant. What is your opinion of the police? Do you trust them to come and protect you if someone breaks into your house, or do you expect them to come and shoot you?
I seem to read this as you thinking I’m not in favor of gun ownership, just because I suggest clarifying the main rule that gives that right that we still argue about its meaning today. If it was clearer, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
I did think that since it’s a standard basis for arguing against the 2nd. The only issue with the language is people ignoring the separation between the justification of the right and the right itself. It doesn’t matter what they said the right was for, whether it be for self defense or a militia for defense of the nation. The right stands on its own as the right to keep and bear arms.
It’s a deliberate misinterpretation.
And that is how a document for rights turns into scripture. “It doesn’t matter why the words say what they say, the words are holy and unchangeable.” The Founders themselves would disagree with your assessment, they said as much that the Constitution is imperfect and can’t possibly predict the needs for the future.
As for the idea that someone questioning the Second Amendment must be against gun ownership, that shows the echo chamber you’re coming from. So many gun owners are left wing/liberal/socialist/whatever label you want, but aren’t as vocal as the right because they understand that with ownership of dangerous things comes responsibility and regulation. Sure seems like a parallel with how the right views other things too…they only like regulation when it works in favor of their beliefs, not for the greater good of the public.
As an anarchist socialist, Marx was right. Emphasis my own.