I’m no fan of American imperialism either but the regime in Iran is actively massacring their civilians on a scale never before seen during protests, I have Iranian friends and they know full well that America and Israel don’t have their best interests at heart, and yet they still want them to intervene because they don’t see any other way for change to happen. My Iranian friends don’t even really like Reza Pahlavi but he’s the most significant figure in these protests and so they’re supporting him purely in solidarity with the people.
It’s a very complicated and nuanced situation and it can’t really be reduced to a meme like this without losing important context.
You don’t need to know much about Iran at all to know for a fact that US intervention will make it worse, you just need to look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Palestine, and every other “repressive dictatorship liberated by US efforts” to see the consequences of invasion.
The protests in Iran are happening because people are literally dying due to impoverishment caused by western sanctions causing the local currency to implode. Focusing only on the government reaction during a period of military buildup Against Iran amounts to atrocity propaganda, however well-meaning your intentions are. It’s meant to create mixed feelings about the invasion amongst progressives “look at how dictatorial they are”
You’re absolutely right that I have mixed feelings and am conflicted, I would love to say with 100% confidence that “Iran is different” but I can’t.
Part of the protestors anger is impoverishment caused by sanctions, it was certainly a big factor in this protest and at least a minor factor in every other protest.
But conversely these protests are also fueled by discontent with the treatment of women.
They’re also fueled by the thirsty people who are suffering from poor water management policies that ignored traditional irrigation methods in favor of the western approach of spraying huge amounts into the air to grow water hungry crops in a famously water scarce region. Fuck even Israel was egging on the protestors with the promise of sending water experts once the regime is gone.
I’m not supporting America invading but I do think that there are real humanitarian issues that need to be addressed.
What upsets me most is not that the rest of the world is silent and only “brave and compassionate” America is speaking against them, its that the Iranian people only have America to turn to, that the only countries that are “on their side” (from the view of the public) are America and Israel.
This regime is so quick to label any unrest in the country as foreign meddling but they themselves are the cause for half of the problems.
Believe me, I’m a communist, there’s nothing I wish more for Iran than a secular socialist government, land reform, LGBTQ and women’s rights, economic equality… Unfortunately, the west destroyed their most recent chance at this with the total sanctioning and military intervention against Mosaddeq, because British Petroleum’s interests in the region were more important than the lives of Iranians. CIA paying mafias to perform protests against the government, MI6 paying actors to destroy private property and pretend they were communists, military blockade of petroleum exports… The whole suite.
This is why I reject so much further western meddling. If Iran is to have a socialist government, it will be by itself without meddling, and the point of focus from the west should be, IMO, preventing sanctions and military action against the Iranian people. However bad the Iranian government is currently, the only alternative for now from what I see is ISIS or Israel, and neither is better, it’s the sad truth of geopolitics.
Nuance is when your opinions about other countries always coincidentally and conveniently line up with what the US government wants. Very nuanced, you incredible free thinker you.
Don’t misunderstand, I’m not American, I don’t support America, in my personal and professional life I’ve been making every reasonable effort to decouple my life from America (hence why I’m on Lemmy)
I didn’t even say that I support America invading.
The reality of Iran is that every few years since the 1979 revolution the people become discontent enough to start protesting, and every time the government harshly cracks down on those protests, and in both the process and the after math, many people are killed by the government for protesting. That’s an oversimplification but serves to illustrate my point.
My knowledge and understanding is based on my Iranian friends, who fled the country as refugees and left their friends and families behind, because of the oppressive government.
Those same friends do not like America, but they aren’t left with any other options but to support America. Not a day goes by that they don’t complain about the willful ignorance of the European Union and the world at large for being silent, only last week did the EU even decide to label the IRGC as a terrorist group.
The UN and international courts should be the ones trying to intervene and at the very least stop the regime killing tens of thousands of their own people.
Amazing how every documented historical fact that’s inconvenient to the genocidal US narrative suddenly became Kremlin Propaganda overnight. Those evil Russians must have a crystal ball, because boy do they end up being correct a shitload of the time
I am more than happy to have a discussion, I’ve tried to outline my views and understanding of the situation in a clear and concise way and I invite any and all questions made in good faith.
My personal politics do not even remotely align with America, even on Iran I’m fully aware that America has only selfish intentions, and am appalled by it.
This is the first time in my adult life that I’ve even considered an invasion to be in any way beneficial (which would only be a by-product in this situation)
But the Iranians around me are telling me their choices are either:
get shot, arrested, executed by their own government
or invite a foreign power who might give them a little more personal freedom while milking them dry of their oil and resources
Please tell me what you think the international community should be doing? After Russia it’s already the most sanctioned country in the world, and those sanctions have contributed to the discontent that fuels these protests.
This is the first time in my adult life that I’ve even considered an invasion to be in any way beneficial
Liberals oppose every war but the current one.
But the Iranians around me are telling me
They’re expats or n generations removed. They’re not in Iran, don’t know what’s really going on there and don’t speak for those who are and do.
Please tell me what you think the international community should be doing?
The international community:
After Russia it’s already the most sanctioned country in the world, and those sanctions have contributed to the discontent that fuels these protests.
Correct, and that’s exactly why the “international community” shouldn’t be imposing illegal sanctions in the first place. They’re not imposing collective punishment on the Iranian people out of the goodness of their hearts. They care about Iranians exactly as much as they care about Palestinians, namely: not a rat’s ass. Despite the bleeding heart rhetoric, the sanctions are for furthering imperialist interests, predominantly those of the US and Israel. They want regime change that vassalizes Iran.
It’s certainly not diplomacy and it’s not coercion. It is war conducted by economic means, all designed to produce an economic crisis and social unrest leading to a fall of the government.
Thanks for applying your preconceived political label to me, very reductive. I don’t use American political labels like that and if you want to get an actual idea of my stance ask specific questions.
They’re not expats, they’re refugees that left as soon as they turned 18, and spent years living in Turkey with other Iranian refugees. It was the best place for them (more open socially but still easy for them to get to) to live until Erdogan started becoming more aggressive with deporting refugees and they had to leave Turkey too. Their parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc are still there and are in active contact. Thank you again for making a sweeping generalisation instead of asking a question or even reading my other comments.
You’re right that sanctions are a form of economic warfare, totally agree that it only truly hurts the people. But tell me this, can economic prosperity translate into a better life for the people when women are beaten and abducted on the street by the government funded morality police? When by law a womans life is worth half that of a man? When a man can exploit that to get away with murder by killing a woman from a poor family that can’t afford to pay for him to be punished and are forced to accept compensation payment from him? When all women are legally owned by their fathers and husbands?
This most recent round of protests was sparked by economic woes yes, but what about the Green Movement? What about the Mahsa Amini protests? Mahsa Amini especially you should be aware of, it was only 3-4 years ago that millions across the country were furious about her death in police custody for not adhering to mandatory hijab rules. And yes, after protesting for months, after hundreds died and thousands were arrested, and multiple individuals were executed, the government graciously relaxed the hijab rules. If you’re from the west looking in that story ends in a nice little neat package. If you’re a woman in Iran then that brief whiff of freedom doesn’t last long, and slowly but surely that freedom is gradually eroded until you’re back where you were before the protests. The only existing remnant of that is the fact women in rich parts of the cities wont be immediately abducted by the morality police for having a little hair on display.
Please to anyone else replying, approach me with enough respect to read my paragraphs before deciding who I am and what I think.
I’m no fan of American imperialism either but the regime in Iran is actively massacring their civilians on a scale never before seen during protests, I have Iranian friends and they know full well that America and Israel don’t have their best interests at heart, and yet they still want them to intervene because they don’t see any other way for change to happen. My Iranian friends don’t even really like Reza Pahlavi but he’s the most significant figure in these protests and so they’re supporting him purely in solidarity with the people.
It’s a very complicated and nuanced situation and it can’t really be reduced to a meme like this without losing important context.
You don’t need to know much about Iran at all to know for a fact that US intervention will make it worse, you just need to look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Palestine, and every other “repressive dictatorship liberated by US efforts” to see the consequences of invasion.
The protests in Iran are happening because people are literally dying due to impoverishment caused by western sanctions causing the local currency to implode. Focusing only on the government reaction during a period of military buildup Against Iran amounts to atrocity propaganda, however well-meaning your intentions are. It’s meant to create mixed feelings about the invasion amongst progressives “look at how dictatorial they are”
You’re absolutely right that I have mixed feelings and am conflicted, I would love to say with 100% confidence that “Iran is different” but I can’t.
Part of the protestors anger is impoverishment caused by sanctions, it was certainly a big factor in this protest and at least a minor factor in every other protest.
But conversely these protests are also fueled by discontent with the treatment of women.
They’re also fueled by the thirsty people who are suffering from poor water management policies that ignored traditional irrigation methods in favor of the western approach of spraying huge amounts into the air to grow water hungry crops in a famously water scarce region. Fuck even Israel was egging on the protestors with the promise of sending water experts once the regime is gone.
I’m not supporting America invading but I do think that there are real humanitarian issues that need to be addressed.
What upsets me most is not that the rest of the world is silent and only “brave and compassionate” America is speaking against them, its that the Iranian people only have America to turn to, that the only countries that are “on their side” (from the view of the public) are America and Israel.
This regime is so quick to label any unrest in the country as foreign meddling but they themselves are the cause for half of the problems.
(also thank you for engaging me in good faith)
Believe me, I’m a communist, there’s nothing I wish more for Iran than a secular socialist government, land reform, LGBTQ and women’s rights, economic equality… Unfortunately, the west destroyed their most recent chance at this with the total sanctioning and military intervention against Mosaddeq, because British Petroleum’s interests in the region were more important than the lives of Iranians. CIA paying mafias to perform protests against the government, MI6 paying actors to destroy private property and pretend they were communists, military blockade of petroleum exports… The whole suite.
This is why I reject so much further western meddling. If Iran is to have a socialist government, it will be by itself without meddling, and the point of focus from the west should be, IMO, preventing sanctions and military action against the Iranian people. However bad the Iranian government is currently, the only alternative for now from what I see is ISIS or Israel, and neither is better, it’s the sad truth of geopolitics.
Hahaha you’re literally doing the thing. Good stuff
“My Venezuelan friends are celebrating”
Imagine having a nuanced opinion? Crazy
Nuance is when your opinions about other countries always coincidentally and conveniently line up with what the US government wants. Very nuanced, you incredible free thinker you.
Nuanced, like celebrating civilians from your own country being bombed 🤓
How many countries do you have to destroy before you stop falling for regime change justifications?
Don’t misunderstand, I’m not American, I don’t support America, in my personal and professional life I’ve been making every reasonable effort to decouple my life from America (hence why I’m on Lemmy)
I didn’t even say that I support America invading.
The reality of Iran is that every few years since the 1979 revolution the people become discontent enough to start protesting, and every time the government harshly cracks down on those protests, and in both the process and the after math, many people are killed by the government for protesting. That’s an oversimplification but serves to illustrate my point.
My knowledge and understanding is based on my Iranian friends, who fled the country as refugees and left their friends and families behind, because of the oppressive government.
Those same friends do not like America, but they aren’t left with any other options but to support America. Not a day goes by that they don’t complain about the willful ignorance of the European Union and the world at large for being silent, only last week did the EU even decide to label the IRGC as a terrorist group.
The UN and international courts should be the ones trying to intervene and at the very least stop the regime killing tens of thousands of their own people.
Removed by mod
What a fantastic excuse not to try. It’s not that you’re blisteringly ignorant, it’s just that everyone around you is mentally defective.
Removed by mod
Amazing how every documented historical fact that’s inconvenient to the genocidal US narrative suddenly became Kremlin Propaganda overnight. Those evil Russians must have a crystal ball, because boy do they end up being correct a shitload of the time
I am more than happy to have a discussion, I’ve tried to outline my views and understanding of the situation in a clear and concise way and I invite any and all questions made in good faith.
My personal politics do not even remotely align with America, even on Iran I’m fully aware that America has only selfish intentions, and am appalled by it.
This is the first time in my adult life that I’ve even considered an invasion to be in any way beneficial (which would only be a by-product in this situation) But the Iranians around me are telling me their choices are either:
Please tell me what you think the international community should be doing? After Russia it’s already the most sanctioned country in the world, and those sanctions have contributed to the discontent that fuels these protests.
Liberals oppose every war but the current one.
They’re expats or n generations removed. They’re not in Iran, don’t know what’s really going on there and don’t speak for those who are and do.
The international community:
Correct, and that’s exactly why the “international community” shouldn’t be imposing illegal sanctions in the first place. They’re not imposing collective punishment on the Iranian people out of the goodness of their hearts. They care about Iranians exactly as much as they care about Palestinians, namely: not a rat’s ass. Despite the bleeding heart rhetoric, the sanctions are for furthering imperialist interests, predominantly those of the US and Israel. They want regime change that vassalizes Iran.
Jeffrey Sachs: Engineering Iran’s Unrest
Thanks for applying your preconceived political label to me, very reductive. I don’t use American political labels like that and if you want to get an actual idea of my stance ask specific questions.
They’re not expats, they’re refugees that left as soon as they turned 18, and spent years living in Turkey with other Iranian refugees. It was the best place for them (more open socially but still easy for them to get to) to live until Erdogan started becoming more aggressive with deporting refugees and they had to leave Turkey too. Their parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc are still there and are in active contact. Thank you again for making a sweeping generalisation instead of asking a question or even reading my other comments.
You’re right that sanctions are a form of economic warfare, totally agree that it only truly hurts the people. But tell me this, can economic prosperity translate into a better life for the people when women are beaten and abducted on the street by the government funded morality police? When by law a womans life is worth half that of a man? When a man can exploit that to get away with murder by killing a woman from a poor family that can’t afford to pay for him to be punished and are forced to accept compensation payment from him? When all women are legally owned by their fathers and husbands?
This most recent round of protests was sparked by economic woes yes, but what about the Green Movement? What about the Mahsa Amini protests? Mahsa Amini especially you should be aware of, it was only 3-4 years ago that millions across the country were furious about her death in police custody for not adhering to mandatory hijab rules. And yes, after protesting for months, after hundreds died and thousands were arrested, and multiple individuals were executed, the government graciously relaxed the hijab rules. If you’re from the west looking in that story ends in a nice little neat package. If you’re a woman in Iran then that brief whiff of freedom doesn’t last long, and slowly but surely that freedom is gradually eroded until you’re back where you were before the protests. The only existing remnant of that is the fact women in rich parts of the cities wont be immediately abducted by the morality police for having a little hair on display.
Please to anyone else replying, approach me with enough respect to read my paragraphs before deciding who I am and what I think.
Liberal isn’t an American label. You are a liberal.
Removed by mod