Grew up in a cult that refuses to do any military (JW), so at least one benefit I guess in that I was never brought up to venerate the military, or even any living person.
“The Universal Soldier,” all about a soldier’s responsibility in the continuation of war, is one of my favorite protest songs from the 60s (though I am more familiar with Donovan’s version).
Maybe we can add some verses to this one?
… And he’s fighting for the fascists…
The Universal Soldier
Buffy Sainte-Marie
He’s five feet two and he’s six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He’s all of 31 and he’s only 17
He’s been a soldier for a thousand yearsHe’s a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn’t kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for youAnd he’s fighting for Canada,
he’s fighting for France,
he’s fighting for the USA,
and he’s fighting for the Russians
and he’s fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we’ll put an end to war this wayAnd he’s fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it’s for the peace of all
He’s the one who must decide
who’s to live and who’s to die
and he never sees the writing on the wallsBut without him how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He’s the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can’t go onHe’s the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can’t you see
this is not the way we put an end to war.shaq asleep meme
American tax dollars funding the slaughter and maming of hundrends of thousands of civilians in gaza and 3rd world countries
shaq awake meme American tax dollars killing 1 american
Yes and no. American military personnel absolutely murdered innocent civilians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Panama, Vietnam, Korea, Germany, Italy, Japan, …
But not every one, not every day, not multiple times a day.
I know this sounds like “not all X are Y,” and to some extent sure, but some mechanic or cook or logistics nerd who never touched a trigger after Basic isn’t a murderer like the shit bag who killed Good or Pretti or the others is.
i think the “countless civilians every day” was more meant to be a reference to the total deaths per day by the hands of the american forces, not every single soldier individually. poorly worded, but it is a tweet, so thats kind of expected.
But they still supported the institution no? Hitler’s cook can make the same claim
Sure but by this logic every person who has paid taxes to the US, or imported things from the US, is culpable to a degree in war crimes. Is it kind of true? Yes. Is it a useful point? Not really, beyond pointing out the boundless capability of capital to abstract and distance its effects.
Why go so far? Hitler’s only confirmed kill in WWII was Hitler, great guy by their logic. Or not so great because he shot the great pacifist leader Hitler.
Any cog in a looking machine is a killer, even if it isn’t a bullet.
And neither were drafted.
Nice to finally see other Americans waking the fuck up and realizing that this is what we’ve been doing to the rest of the world since the fucking inception.
I’ve been shouting it from the rooftops since I was young but boomers and gen x always wagged their finger at me “Don’t talk about that…”
One person’s hero is another person’s war criminal
I don’t have one of those. I have an ex-marine friend, who I chastised when he originally signed up I remember I joked “If you die in combat I’m going to kill you.” because he was basically my best friend at the time. He came from an extremely poor family.
He ended up (unwillingly) being assigned to being a MP, and ended up never shooting or bombing a soul. He was just agonizingly bored for hours and hours (He hoped for bar fights to break out just to fill the time). Hes now a union rep for a private security company and he hates all of his co-workers because he tells me they’re almost all [redacted] racist assholes (hes half black).
My cousin was aNavy F16 pilot who got a medal for dropping the most bombs on Syria. I casually asked him what it felt like to be responsible for so much death and broken families and he looked at me like his brain was shorting out.
Not to take away from your story, but the USN flies F18s and F35s, the F16s are all USAF.
It’s a very, very common mistake, especially with the “teen” fighters. The fact that movies and TV often get it wrong by inserting a model of one aircraft and claiming it’s another doesn’t help.
The phrase “you can tell that’s not an F-18 because it’s shaped exactly like an F-16” has been said more than once at my house.
Homeboy chooses not to think about it or what he’s done, I don’t think Id like your cousin simply for that alone.
Some people can separate pushing a button from pulling a trigger and feeling recoil.
we call them sociopaths
Easily proven true by endless apologia for US military members. When Russians do it, the are orc, when Americans do it, they were poor and needed healthcare.
It hadn’t occurred to me before your comment - they don’t want us to have Medicare For All because then the biggest and best benefit of going into military service would be available to every citizen. Or that’s surely one of the MANY horrible reasons they continue to fuck us on healthcare.
The military pipeline shuts down when good pay, housing, healthcare, etc. are provided to the proletariat.
It’s worse than that. Much like the corporate, “middle class” white collar structure depends on keeping people too indebted to ever really have power or freedom to negotiate for fairness, the military also depends on underpaying and overworking its people. They have to provide that same level of inadequacy, and then, make not getting it even more unbearable.
When you start to look at the math, a lot of the previously incomprehensible decisions of the government start to make sense. Why is abortion illegal? Because given free choice, poor people stop reproducing at levels needed to maintain the slave wage labor when they can’t afford the basic necessities to raise a family. Or more specifically, women do… you can find a willing sperm donor, but the mom gets told by society don’t have a baby you can’t afford, and does exactly that. And then they trot out a whole “God doesn’t like this” moral argument, all while happily looking the other way when it’s clear a bunch of their leaders party fucked kids on an offshore island.
You double standards and cope, the American way
Orcmerica
My friend went into the military and, as he puts it, ‘swept sand in a sandstorm’ for most of his time there. His experience seemed to be mostly boredom. He wore a beard to hid his nega-chin and ended up working on AC units for the most part.
Let’s see, last time I checked Russia was releasing violent criminals to fight in Ukraine. You go ahead and find me a modern comparison from the U.S., I’ll wait.
Edit: violent criminals who rape new recruits, by the way — in the interest of clarity.
You can even try to claim some more weird ass non-existing morality points by pointing out that Hey, the US doesn’t even recruit soldiers all that much nowadays… they just hire private companies now… See? US military good, it’s mercenaries that are bad.
Ya know… like Wagner Group. Oh no… guess they’re more alike than you think.So your logic is that the U.S. is equally as bad as Russia because they hire mercenaries, so bums working on AC units back home share the same blame as hired guns and professional soldiers.
What a ridiculous group of people.
What a ridiculous group of people.
I know, right? I equally despise the military industrial complex at large, as well as those who are just following orders/helping out in the background and their online simps.
Theres a lot of rape going on in the us military too. Youll find lots of testemony about these crimes being silenced and unpunished, with a bit of research.
https://www.protectourdefenders.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/MSA-Fact-Sheet-2021.pdf
You can say its different. Yes, i agree. But the us doesnt really have any moral high ground as your comment seems to suggest.
Oh rape isn’t the only problem I have with the Russia military, but I’m not about to provide an essay for you.
They surely have tons of horrible problems. But you seem to want to hold on to a feeling of moral superiority relative to the russians for some reason… which is just not real.
Let’s see, last time I checked Russia was releasing violent criminals to fight in Ukraine. You go ahead and find me a modern comparison from the U.S., I’ll wait.
I don’t have to play your stupid games. The vast majority of Russian soldiers are/were not convicts but either people who voluntarily joined their country’s army to make a living like your friend did or civilians who were drafted/conscripted. Most of them also did not kill or rape anyone like your friend. They probably would say they swept snow in a snowstorm instead.
Yet they still enable Russia’s attack on Ukraine. So did your friend with regards to USA’s attacks on Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Your friend is not better than them because he is your friend nor because he is American.
You mean my friend who was only ever in stationed in Texas?
Yeah you sure are good at determining my ‘stupid games’, you really got me there buddy. At least I know what to tag you.
Your friend is by your own logic then as innocent of the killing in that war is Putin is of the killing in Ukraine. He hasn’t shot anyone, just like your friend.
There is simply no fucking way you’re trying to say a grunt has as much responsibility as the dictator. I simply cannot entertain this lmao
Those are your words. If you think Putin is a murderer your friend is a murderer. Deal with it, friend of murderers.
The plural of anecdote is NOT data.
I’m not the one trying to suggest bums working on AC units in the states shoulder the same responsibility as hired guns and professional soldiers.
You mean my friend who was only ever in stationed in Texas?
There certainly exists Russian military personnel that did not serve outside Russia. I bet you would not consider them as innocent as your friend.
Yeah you sure are good at determining my ‘stupid games’, you really got me there buddy. At least I know what to tag you.
Tag me a Russian shillbot if it makes you feel better.
I bet you would not consider them as innocent as your friend.
Why would you assume this?
Beyond which, to hate the U.S. military for their crimes one must hate the Russian military for theirs — lest they make themselves out to be a hypocrite. I don’t care if you want to call out the U.S. military, do not act like the Russians are guiltless or somehow deserving of compassion. I will feel no more compassion for them than I will U.S. soldiers in the event of an invasion of Canada or Greenland.
I never acted as if the Russians are guiltless for invading Ukraine, it’s you that’s acting as if Americans are guiltless for invading Iraq. That said both peoples are still human.
Care to explain why you disregard the invasion of Iraq that’s already happened and focus on a hypothetical invasion of Canada or Greenland?
The military is a social program.
They need the poors to fight their wars and work on their factory floors.
Ask a black person that has grown up in the USA, ask how free they have felt before even all this. I had one break it down for me and it started the trek to changing my view of the USA as well as political positioning. We’ve always been like this from inception, just it’s hitting close to home now the moderate is feeling the pain.
My nephew just signed up for the Marines cause he’s not doing well financially and his gf is also in there. Dude skipped out on going to his grandmother’s funeral so he could take the test to get in.
Something a lot of people ignore or claim is irrelevant is the individual’s situation before joining and it bugs me. I could be talking out of my ass here, because I don’t know your nephew, but this kid sounds as if he could be pretty desperate for a way out of his situation. Could just be a jackass, but even jackasses usually show up for gran’s funeral and they give those tests every week.
It’s not that he’s utterly blameless, but why would we heap all the blame on him and not acknowledge the system that made/keeps him desperate? Influence from his girlfriend probably contributed, but he’s in a bad financial situation and joining offers an escape, a chance to be with his girl, and a shortcut to getting established on his own. But sure, the only thing he thought about was getting to kill in the next war for oil and he obviously has no misgivings about anything the government will ask him to do. It’s not like anyone is ever forced to choose between two bad options in life. /s
How many kids like your nephew get an education in geopolitical issues and colonialism before they make a similar decision? How many chose the military over seeking work in a failing economy, remaining in an abusive home, or getting trapped with a mountain of debt and a useless degree? How many grew up in a home with Fox news playing 24/7 and just never had a chance to learn the truth?
Having raised two kids and been one myself, I can tell you with certainty that critical thinking isn’t an 18 year old’s greatest skill. Everything the recruiter says will sound great, or at least reasonable. He’s a real friendly guy, not like those hard-asses you see in the movies about boot camp…
And once you’re in, you stay in until your contract is up or risk severe consequences. You can’t just quit. There’s massive cultural and peer pressure involved. 6 year enlistments are standard for the “free college”. Someone who enlisted under Biden’s admin, mistakenly thinking things would be okay, and now wants to leave might be in until 2028 or face some nasty legal and financial consequences, not to mention losing most of their current social circle. Do people think hanging the sins of the nation around their necks is going to entice them to leave? Have we learned nothing of the backlash effect while dealing with MAGA cultists? How many times have people won converts solely by preaching about the evils of the other side?
This isn’t a clean and tidy philosophical thought experiment, it’s a goddamn moral labyrinth built in an active landfill. They can’t undo their decision, some folks love them, some people hate them, and who’s going to help them out if they do the right thing and go CO? So, what are they most likely to do until their enlistment is up? Just wait and hope they can avoid being directly involved.
Are there utter shitbags and rascists in the military who joined to hurt PoC and own the libs? Yes. But it’s not the monolithic block people make it out to be during these discussions and I’m so very tired of the lack of nuance.
Sorry if I hijacked your comment but damn, check in on the kid from time to time, make sure he’s alright. Even if he’s a jackass.
I don’t have time to find the correct link to the project. For some stupid reason it wasn’t on their main page. Excellent reporting on one of undoubtedly many cases of USA soldiers murdering people in Iraq:
https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/podcast-dark-examines-crime-went-unpunished
Thank you for the knowledge. I wasn’t aware this concept existed, but it explains a lot.
Hannah Arendt had alot to say on this topic in her 1951 book “The origins of totalitarianism”. Its a scary reflection on how and why totalitarian states could arise in the first half of 1900’s. Especially eery with the current state of the world are the parts that paints a picture on how easy it can be for truth to become obfuscated and how lies can replace them to become the head-cannon of the masses.
It works the same way with demographics as well.
Colonize a place and eventually you make allowances and permit some sort of “very strict” immigration from the colonized places. “The Goods Ones” and a few politicians that carrier water for you. But once you’ve broken the seal, it’s a slippery slope. Not too long after that you have “natives” who have squandered or never even had generational wealth that was the proceeds of colonialism seeing how they’ve been matched or out-classes by another group, and start to feel loss aversion.
Also works with foreign wars, as they require collaboration with a side in that war. Suddenly you have translators and local staff and spies and politicians and sudden spouses of soldiers, all legitimately asking for a taste of what they and their family suffered for (often quite a bit more than the foreign fighters, who sat in a tent directing things).
or even just… what cops in the U.S. do to any minority.
Had a co-worker today try to be like “extra-legal executions just aren’t American” and I was like “welllll we sure seem to love doing them, especially against anyone with a skin color other than white.” Topic changed pretty quickly after that.
I’ve got a folder on my computer documenting countless extra-legal executions by American law enforcement I could find. Videos, articles, documentaries, the whole shebang. Anyone shocked by this and saying it can’t happen here is being wilfully ignorant at this point.
Or detention centers, prison and jail conditions have been absolutely disgusting in the US since forever.
I agree, the detention centers are abhorrent, but prison rape has been used as a fucking joke since I’ve been alive, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. None of the jerk off politicians calling out these camps has done a fucking thing about the same shitty conditions that persist in their own districts to this very day.
detention centers, prison and jail
Private ones are a gold mine with the government handing people over as slaves.
