The chaos of the introduction of capitalism, labeled “shock doctrine,” was intrinsically linked to capitalism and private plunder. There’s no real way to compare what happened to a theoretical possibility where socialism was dissolved, and not capitalism but another system took its place.
bro, the 90s of the post-ussr region was literally ruled by gangs and otherwise criminal mob. It had nothing to do with any doctrine, as the politicians didn’t matter much.
And yes, i wholeheartedly agree, we can’t compare any two countries from two different times, even if they occupied the same territory, as we’d inherrently ignore lots of historical context that way.
i fail to see the connection. Literally the same kind of chaos occured when the revolution happened in 1917. Not to mention, that for capitalism to be “introduced” it should be foreign in the first place. USSR, especially late one was quite capitalistic itself, albeit with it’s own uniquie flavor.
Literally the same kind of chaos occured whet the revolution happened in 1917
Seriously you don’t see any difference in popular revolution overthrowing centuries long tyranny and literal foreign agents overthrowing a state contrary to people wishes and establishing comprador tyranny?
USSR, especially late one was quite capitelistic itself
I am starting to suspect you see history not as dialectical process but as set snapshots.
i fail te see the connection
Considering the above, it does not surprise me anymore.
i’m not talking about the overthrowing itself, but rather about what came after. Before leninists established their rule, there was a period of anarchy, just like there was in the 90s, not to mention that for people of a less internationalist view, USSR rule was just as tyrannical.
I am starting to suspect you see history not as dialectical process but as set snapshots.
you’d have to explain to me how my words you quoted made you think what you thought. The way USSR was at the end of it is a result of dialectical process.
What i said there is, while (after NEP) the banking system was nationalized and even small enterprises shut, enterprise is still an enterprise, even the nationalized one. USSR before perestroika is basically a country-wide corporation, and after perestroika it’s just a plain capitalist country, so i don’t see why you oppose ussr to capitalism, when saying that “capitalists came and forced ussr to crumble”. I know that soviet propagenda would claim otherwise, but capitalists were inside all along, they just had monopoly on everything, and were referred to as government.
Call me dumb or whatever for all i said, but i think that eversince people understood that money should circulate rather than be hoarded and kept, anything we do is inherently and unavoidably capitalistic, thus categorizing a subset of people as “capitalists” in opposition to other subset is inherently wrong.
i think that eversince people understood that money should circulate rather than be hoarded and kept, anything we do is inherently and unavoidably capitalistic
If you don’t even know what capitalism is, then maybe you should sit this one out.
how about you explain to me than? What a certain term means is a matter of agreement rather than discussion. The same word could have different meanings in different contexts after all.
I’m rather more curious about your thoughts on my USSR = state-wide corporation take tho.
The chaos of the introduction of capitalism, labeled “shock doctrine,” was intrinsically linked to capitalism and private plunder. There’s no real way to compare what happened to a theoretical possibility where socialism was dissolved, and not capitalism but another system took its place.
bro, the 90s of the post-ussr region was literally ruled by gangs and otherwise criminal mob. It had nothing to do with any doctrine, as the politicians didn’t matter much.
And yes, i wholeheartedly agree, we can’t compare any two countries from two different times, even if they occupied the same territory, as we’d inherrently ignore lots of historical context that way.
Yes it does happen when capitalism is introduced, it’s a feature of expanding capitalism, either colonial or imperialist.
i fail to see the connection. Literally the same kind of chaos occured when the revolution happened in 1917. Not to mention, that for capitalism to be “introduced” it should be foreign in the first place. USSR, especially late one was quite capitalistic itself, albeit with it’s own uniquie flavor.
Seriously you don’t see any difference in popular revolution overthrowing centuries long tyranny and literal foreign agents overthrowing a state contrary to people wishes and establishing comprador tyranny?
I am starting to suspect you see history not as dialectical process but as set snapshots.
Considering the above, it does not surprise me anymore.
i’m not talking about the overthrowing itself, but rather about what came after. Before leninists established their rule, there was a period of anarchy, just like there was in the 90s, not to mention that for people of a less internationalist view, USSR rule was just as tyrannical.
you’d have to explain to me how my words you quoted made you think what you thought. The way USSR was at the end of it is a result of dialectical process.
What i said there is, while (after NEP) the banking system was nationalized and even small enterprises shut, enterprise is still an enterprise, even the nationalized one. USSR before perestroika is basically a country-wide corporation, and after perestroika it’s just a plain capitalist country, so i don’t see why you oppose ussr to capitalism, when saying that “capitalists came and forced ussr to crumble”. I know that soviet propagenda would claim otherwise, but capitalists were inside all along, they just had monopoly on everything, and were referred to as government.
Call me dumb or whatever for all i said, but i think that eversince people understood that money should circulate rather than be hoarded and kept, anything we do is inherently and unavoidably capitalistic, thus categorizing a subset of people as “capitalists” in opposition to other subset is inherently wrong.
If you don’t even know what capitalism is, then maybe you should sit this one out.
how about you explain to me than? What a certain term means is a matter of agreement rather than discussion. The same word could have different meanings in different contexts after all.
I’m rather more curious about your thoughts on my USSR = state-wide corporation take tho.
I’m aware of how chaotic it was, but it was also capitalist with foreign plundering from western countries.