It feel like we’re losing to Google, day by day. They aren’t killing AOSP directly, but they are making it useless step by step.
Now it’s Google Play Services, Play Integrity checks, installation source checks… more and more apps just refuse to run without GMS. Banking apps? Most of them don’t work. And it’s only getting worse. I run vanilla AOSP on my main profile, no Play Services. I keep GMS only in my work profile for the apps that absolutely need it. But now even some regular apps that don’t need any play services won’t work on my main profile anymore. They simply block your from running , like le chat.
Maps is google’s most important app there is no way to run without play services. Sure we can use webview or gmaps wv, but they don’t provide turn-by-turn directions. Earlier maps used to work without play services, but two years ago, an update stopped it from working. Now that old version is out of date and no longer works.
Google is slowly making GMS very important to run. The problem with GMS is they require to run as system app and has to have all the permissions by default.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
If we keep going on like this, AOSP can only run fdroid apps in the future.
Realistically, change your approach to how you use your phone.
A majority of apps are not actually apps. They are a web app packaged in an apk so they can get elevated permissions and more data. Dont download apps, instead just install them from your browser as the web app they are. This is far more secure and far less invasive as generally a web app is containerized, at least thats my understanding in regards to firefox.
Instead of google maps, explore the world of open source navigation apps. Osmand has worked great for me, and tends to provide better info so im not panic merging at the last second. Theres a lot of them out there, and google maps has stagnated for so long that many of them are caught up in features. While its not open source, ive sesn a lot of people praise Magic Earth as well.
Buy phones on the premise of being allowed to use a custom rom. As much as i dont want a pixel because it is google, graphene os is battle tested and much more secure than stock android. But theres also lineage OS, eOS, and a few others out there.
If you need google play services, containerize it. I keep all apps i dont want having special permissions on a work profile. Funnily, i also keep my work apps on that profile, so if google wants my works data then they can handle the lawsuit if something bad happens lol.
I think a lot of people have forgotten that phones are tiny computers. The only real difference is the cell network, but we already have devices that can use those networks that arent phones, so it isnt an exclusive feature to phones. Android can be forked, but also we can emulate android on linux and there are already linux phones out there. If we grow the linux space for phones, then we effectively lose nothing of value while gaining increased freedom. For now, change how you use your phone, and only download apps if you have no other choice.
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Mainline linux on mobile is solving this problem as we speak: https://postmarketos.org/
I expect a full collapse of the Google Android behemoth about the same time we get Half Life 3.
i reaaallyyy want this project to be amazing. We need a lot more device support though for that to happen.
ITT: no one has any idea.
hint: class war
For banking, I use the website instead of the application. I have very few non-open-source applications left on my phone.
in my country they won’t let you do that without at least their proprietary 2fa on your phone. and that of course needs play integrity in 90% of cases.
I was upset about Duo authenticator when I found out someone made a workaround that lets you export the secrets to a normal totp app. I can only hope you have some project like that for your situation
Real question is
Why can’t a rooted android fake play services?
If they really had interest in stopping you they could definitely stop you. That’s the direction they’re heading with all of these apps that are doing the integrity check. It’s just a matter of time that it’ll take for them to do it gradually enough not to make everything backward compatible explode.
Microg and stuff like that are probably on their way out within the next few generations.
When postmarket finally manages to reverse engineer the modems and the voice and support something with a half decent camera I’ll readily leave the ecosystem.
Afaik this is possible, but the banking apps don’t like rooting either. No achievement there.
why can’t we sandbox them in a goody two-shoes kind of environment?
I thought that was the reason for the cloned app that runs outside the Insular sandbox. I am dumb on the subject and making assumptions though.
I keep my old smartphone precisely so I can install banking apps and other annoyances.
Feel free to track the burner phone that stays on the same location, turns on once a week, is got tape on the cameras and never uses the browser.
Run as many open source apps as you can is about the best option. Also, OSMAND does provide turn-by-turn directions.
What it does not do well is street addresses, so at times you may find that you have to use the GPS coordinates of the place you are going to in order to get directions.
It’s never had any trouble with street addresses for me. It’s using open street map so if there are addresses that aren’t right you can submit changes.
Where it has trouble for me is on long trips over great distances. If you ask it to route a 6-hour trip to another state through a couple of metropolitan areas It has a pretty good chance of sending you a non-optimal route.
I’ve found that it can get you to businesses fairly well. where I have seen failures is navigating to an individual’s home address. What you can do is you can get the nearby intersection of two roads fairly easily, but the home address is much more difficult.
Maybe postmarketOS?
Maps?
Use OsmAnd and MagicEarth? I’ve been doping it for years now. Works fine.
Comaps has been awesome for me
Also Theres comaps
I enjoy Organic Maps.
Comaps is the fork, we moved away from organic maps. You will find basically the same experience.
We are in war with big tech, why would anyone think they would just let us win without a fight.
It is only slightly on topic, but I’d like to give a hateful shout out to Ticketmaster/Live Nation’s new “mobile only” ticketed events that require you to have an iPhone or fully Google blessed Android phone. They do not allow you to use a QR code or printed ticket anymore, only their app with a constantly changing bare code or Google wallet (unsure of the IOS experience).
I am going to a concert this weekend and I either have to dig up some old phone that can work with this app or sell my tickets.
I stopped going. Fuck it. Not giving in to their bullshit.
I’ve been quietly boycotting them for over 13 years now, shortly after online scalpers started having their field day with their sites. It sucks not being able to go to any major shows but I have made myself compromise by going to small local shows only and it hasn’t been that bad.
Everyone votes with their wallets, so as long as people keep paying, they’ll keep making us jump through more and more hoops.
So messed up that they too are the scalpers. A band I liked put pressure on them and managed to catch them in their bullshit, but that is rare.
That’s how I’m feeling I will go after this concert since they already have my money.
The local folks probably deserve tye attendance more anyway. So many nepo babies…
It was the fees for me. Their CEO needs to be Luigi’d for leading a parasitic company that has made so many music venues go under.
Someone recently crack their shit code. Can use offline app after extract secret once. Will link once find.
Edit: https://conduition.io/coding/ticketmaster/ app (javascript) https://github.com/conduition/ticketgimp
Thanks, that might be a handy workaround.
Boop, source found.
Thanks!
Just go to the box office when you get there and present an ID that matches the name the tickets were purchased under. Depending on the venue, they will either print your ticket or text you a link that opens a page in your browser that can be scanned.
Everything I’ve read is that they only offer accommodations to people during time of purchase, and even then you’re basically at the mercy of the venue. I’m going to call them and see what I can do, but I don’t have high hopes.
I’ve never had an issue loading my tickets in the browser.
Then you weren’t at one of the new “mobile only” ticket events. https://help.ticketmaster.com/hc/en-us/articles/9786597785617-How-do-I-use-Mobile-Entry-tickets
Of the largest android sellers, only samsung requires gplay. Xiaomi, vivo, oppo, realme, honor, are all chinese companies that require non-bundled google play for their domestic (and maybe other countries?) releases. Google can’t alienate these sellers, and if they did, all of these companies would create their own AOSP fork (or just switch to HarmonyOS)
I recently bought a xiaomi android tablet that doesn’t have google play services luckily.
Xiaomi is terrible when it comes to locked bootloaders unfortunately.
mine is unlocked and rommed. they’re fine in that aspect unless something changed recently?
If the goal is too swap one parasite for another, this is a valid strategy BUT
Custom ROM is the only proper solution, ideally GrapheneOS, if you actually care about security and privacy.
Hope EU puts pressure to make google allow apps to run independently without GMS or atleast install them as user apps(like graphene os sandboxed play services).
I doubt they will put any pressure. EU decided to rely on GMS for their upcoming Digital ID app. While they claim they want to switch to open source alternatives of big tech services, they designed their app so that it forces EU citizens to either comply with Google’s ToS, or Apple’s.
Related discussion: https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-specification/issues/18
Damn we are stupid in the EU!
What do we want: digital sovereignty
When do we want it: ehrm… Well… We have some things in pipeline and it is really hard…
They know that NSA is directly spying on us and they don’t care
Furthermore, they do not seem particularly open to criticism on this subject…
if you could just have read one more update on that issue, you would’ve seen that it is moved to a discussion post now
Well spotted, my bad!
The link the new discussion is here: https://github.com/eu-digital-identity-wallet/av-doc-technical-specification/discussions/19
The app is reference implementation, not supposed to be used.
Linux phone operating systems aren’t ready for daily use yet, but they are being actively developed. https://linmob.net/
we’d still have to deal with locked bootloaders and adoption.
I can’t wait for when they are ready!
It’ll be awhile. They’ve been in a development state since the launch of the original pinephone in 2020. And even the pinephone is going to be unavailable in two years as pine64 is ceasing sales on it. Not trying to crap on devs. I bought two pinephones (Braveheart & Mobian bundle). Tested multiple distros and excitedly followed their progress for years. I never had a reliable working phone in that four year span. IMO SailfishOS and Post Market OS are the two most usable mobile distros. SailfishOS now requires an ongoing subscription to use which I don’t like.
Linux based phones have been in development for more than a decade now. I had a Neo Freerunner from OpenMoko in 2008… it kinda worked, but it was not good enough for a daily driver.
What we have now is much better, but there’s still some ways to go before I’m able to ditch my non-linuxy smartphone.
Sailfish only needs a subscription to get updates, you can use it without a sub.
I use danctnix on my pinephone, which is basically arch. It does the basics, that’s about it. What’s missing is more convenient apps. Most of the stuff is catered to desktop.
Of all the OSes I tried, I liked ubports the best, but it was not updated and not all hardware worked iirc, and suffered the same problem of apps. At least arch gets updated constantly.
Actively developed sure but Linux phones are a solution looking for a problem. Who wants to run scaled down desktop apps on their phone and who wants a terminal on a phone either? I may be a Linux enthusiast but I want a phone that simply works.
the problem is that google is capable of slurping all of your data and your phone becomes an enhanced avenue for access; the linux phones are the solution to this.
i’m convinced that the “it just works” mantra is the reason why google or apple or microsoft is able to do this sort of asshattery and i can understand why people would want something that simply works.
however, the trade off for this mantra is that you’re giving yourself over to a corporation that not only doesn’ t have your best interest at heart but has proven will happily sell your control for a penny.
i can also understand why someone wouldn’t think that any of this matters and; if you’re lucky; it won’t matter all, but for the rest of us unlucky sob’s (and the people who don’t want to put their faith in luck), linux phones matter.
I use GraphineOS, it already does that but more secure and with apps
That’s the point of the original post though. Google is starting to make development of these custom ROMs more difficult. If Google ever decided to lock down the bootloader for new Pixels, Graphene would be in a world of hurt. I also use GrapheneOS and love it, but who knows if it will be alive two or three years from now.
My point is its absolutely absurd to yell that AOSP is dead because GOOGLE SPECIFIC files such as device trees and firmware files (that maybe one or two other oems regularly distribute) and just jump ship to a platform arguably over a decade behind. Are there concerns? Yes, but those concerns are absolutely nowhere near close to justify the absolute mess the mobile linux space is in. It would be like if amazon packages starting arriving a day late and we all switched to aliexpress.
i was going to do this too, but none of my functioning androids are supported and i expect google to take another step in disabling alternatives.
I also run GrapheneOS, but I’d love to have a decent true Linux alternative that wasn’t tied to Pixel phones. Maybe I can even get my headphone jack back.
A Linux phone doesn’t need to be, and definitely shouldn’t be, a scaled down desktop. There would obviously need to be some purpose built phone apps made, but I am pretty sure the existing Linux phones already do these, they aren’t really breaking new ground here. The whole point would be to have a workable modern phone that isn’t under Google or Apple’s greedy untrustworthy thumbs.
Have you acturally tried Postmarketos or any mobile Linux interface? I have and its just a scaled down Linux desktop.
I have used postmarketOS, and I thought the interface (Plasma Mobile) was OK, but could use some improvements. How long ago did you use it?
Edit: Now that I think about it, I think the last time I tried the Pinephone it was using Manjaro, not postmarketOS. I have used that before though, but you may want to give it another try as it is vastly improved IMO. That being said, the Pinephone itself still kinda sucks from a hardware perspective.
I’ll eventually try it on a pixel 3a
Who wants to run scaled down desktop apps on their phone
I believe the UI of most apps could be made to work well with phone display sizes and resolutions.
and who wants a terminal on a phone either?
Well, I do! It’s great when you want to connect, do or automate something there isn’t an app for. For now I sometimes run Termux on Android. Among smartphone users in general I’m probably an edge case, but among Linux users, I must say, using a terminal on the phone doesn’t seem that crazy to me.
It doesn’t matter if they look ok (they still look out of place and feel wrong), the fact is they’re built with keyboards in mind. Hell even on phosh you’ll see keyboard shortcut indicators.
What stops anyone from making new GUIs, maybe even a new framework for doing that, optimised for touchscreens rather than keyboard and mouse?
Maybe I’m just unknowledgeable, but to me that idea doesn’t sound very far-fetched.
Because people keep defending the keyboard and mouse based mobile interfaces and as long as people and devs say its ok there will be no incentive to make proper mobile interfaces.
A single app can have separate interfaces for mobile and desktop. Mobile/Touch interfaces are uncommon right now because linux on mobile isn’t ready, and it is extra work to make a separate GUI.
We arent even close to developers considering implementing the frameworks to potentially start working on implementing that.
They’re actively trying to solve:
- e-waste and making devices last longer (contributing upstream)
- escaping data harvesting and surveillance
- offer an alternative to the mobile duopoly
I’m baffled that they even bother, given how much people complain about it not being good enough. But I’m glad they do, and I think it’s awesome.
Because they’ve yet to implement basic security features android had a decade ago and the interfaces are clunky, also once again who thought putting desktop apps on Mobile is a good idea?
They’re not a multi-billion dollar company. If you don’t like it, then don’t use it. That’s your choice.
But please stop talking nonsense about them not addressing real problems. Because they are. And they deserve credit for that. Not whining about the imperfections of a work in progress.
You dont have to be a multi billion dollar company to implement security features that exist in aosp, open source features based on freely available software that simply isnt implemented.
No, but it is going to take a considerable amount of time as they don’t have the manpower and resources of a multi billion dollar company.
GraphineOS didn’t start over from scratch for no reason nor did LineageOS so they dont need billions of dollars in funding, if you want to do everything youself then yeah its gonna cost that much.
You can stop using Google and Apple… It’s that simple. But it seems that you, like many other, want their cake and eat it too…
It’s different for every one, but for me it would mean, I can’t use Microsoft authenticator, so I can’t do my job anymore, as it is required to access my mail, teams, files, logging worked hours, etc etc.
I can’t use any of my bank apps anymore, I can’t use my phone anymore for paying in a store or checking in public transportation.
And many more apps that would stop working.
Tell your employer to provide you a corpo phone.
You shouldn’t be using personal device for anything related to your job imho
I do freelance work, so they would just tell me to get it myself. But I really don’t want to have multiple phones. In don’t use teams or mail on my phone anyway, only the authenticator apps (we have multiple).
That’s fair.
Some countries allow the corpos to lock your device down when you delete it, and they have collaborated with the providers to disallow Open Source OS alternatives like Lineage. The only way I know of is to get a Pixel, which is still owned by Google, and then I think only one provider allows the after market OS to function on network. For those of us entering a dictatorship gov, it really sucks.
Well, then there’s a market for someone to crack…
If only there was someone that could afford as much lobbying as Google and Apple, we would have another parasite that was just as bad. Lets just get CB radios. Maybe morse code. God, what a shit show. This country is so fucked.
I believe it depends more on people-power, than on their wealth. That’s why they spend so much money on lobbying - it’s a testament to how scared they are.
I dont know if that indicates that theyre scared, its just part of the maintenance cost of their empires
You don’t spend money on something that you don’t get profit from. That’s just plain logic. They know, if they don’t keep spending money here, some politician would end their monopoly.
Of course. Im just saying i dont believe theyre scared because they know they will continue to have more than enough money for lobbying. Its probably very cheap in comparison to what they get out if it. Any business has necessary maintenance costs
how is that even possible?
How it’s possible to stop using google or apple? By doing it…
sure, am i supposed to live without a smartphone? at some point chasing privacy for the sake of itself just means i’ll have a worse life.
You have accurately identified a major part of the problem. Many people are unwilling to change their habits, or don’t have the patience to learn new tools.
The other element though is time, many people don’t have the time to stop and learn. Especially when a problem like privacy is a lot less immediate than hunger or healthcare.
the monopoly has to be broken, living like luddites and chucking our phones or using pen and paper again for shit won’t solve the issue.
But the frustration among people are also growing, and that should be used/channeled to make a change.
Quite a comfortable way to do this is with grapheneOS. That really gives you a choice. Can’t say much about each and every app, how they run. Although most of my usage hasn’t changed much with grapheneOS as I changed from gsm-free custom ROMs. Works quite good with a nextcloud.
Sure but what’s a viable alternative for normies? It would be simple if a viable alternative existed. For normies, I reiterate.
It’s to do the grass root movement, and get enough to demand it, for a provider to feel the need to expand their customer base that way…
Normies don’t care about that. They care about WhatsApp, Instagram and tiktoks.
Until they don’t… and please don’t call then normies, when they really are manipulated…
Normie is not an insult or derogatory. It just means “normal person”, who is usually not very tech savy.
Most Normies don’t care about privacy. They know, accept and are ok with their data being collected and sold in “free” services.
I don’t agree. Most people I know, just don’t know how it should be different…
The normie is the battle ground.
They need better info and they need to be hurt by corpos for change to heppen.
Uk age verification should see a bump in freedom enjoyer ranks
