i absolutely hate how the modern web just fails to load if one has javascript turned off. i, as a user, should be able to switch off javascript and have the site work exactly as it does with javascript turned on. it’s not a hard concept, people.

but you ask candidates to explain “graceful degradation” and they’ll sit and look at you with a blank stare.

  • XM34@feddit.org
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    1 day ago

    If it’s a standard webpage that only displays some static content, then sure.

    But everything that needs to be interactive (and I’m talking about actual interactivity here, not just navigation) requires Javascript and it’s really not worth the effort of implementing fallbacks for everything just so you can tell your two users who actually get to appreciate this effort that the site still won’t work because the actual functionallity requires JavaScript.

    It all comes down to what the customer is ready to pay for and usually they’re not ready to pay for anything besides core functionallity. Heck, I’m having a hard enough time getting budget for all the legally required accessibility. And sure, some of that no script stuff pays into that as well, but by far not everything.

    Stuff like file uploads, validated forms and drag and drop are just not worth the effort of providing them without JS.

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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      7 hours ago

      The business customer or the visitor?

      The visitor doesn’t exactly have a way to give feedback on whether they’d use a static page.

      Stuff like file uploads, validated forms and drag and drop are just not worth the effort of providing them without JS.

      Honestly many of today’s frameworks allow you to compile the same thing for the Web, for Java for Android, for Java for main desktop OS’es and whatever else.

      Maybe if it can’t work like a hypertext page, it shouldn’t be one.

      • XM34@feddit.org
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        7 hours ago

        The business customer who actually pays for the development.

        Maybe if you can’t use the web without disabling JS, you shouldn’t?

        Progressive Web Apps are the best tool for many jobs right now because they run just about everywhere and opposed to every single other technology we’ve had up until now they have the potential to not look like complete shit!

        And the whole cross compilation that a lot of these frameworks promise is a comete pipe dream. It works only for the most basic of use cases. PWAs are the first and so far only technology I’ve used that doesn’t come with a ton of extra effort for each supported plattfrom down the line.

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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          5 hours ago

          The business customer who actually pays for the development.

          Then it’s my duty as a responsible customer to not make it profitable for them, as much as I can.

          Maybe if you can’t use the web without disabling JS, you shouldn’t?

          Suppose I can use the Web with JS disabled. Just that page won’t be part of my Web.

          Yes, of course when the optimization work has been done for you, it’s the easiest.

          It’s an old discussion about monopolies, monocultures, standards, anti-monopoly regulations, where implicit consent is a thing and where it isn’t, and how to make free market stable.

      • XM34@feddit.org
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        21 hours ago

        Not if you want them to be at least halfway user friendly. Form validation is terrible when done completely server side, and several input elements like multiselect dropdowns, comboboxes and searchfields won’t work at all unless supported by client side JavaScript. And have you ever tried to do file previews and upload progress bars purly serverside?

        So I guess by fileupload you mean “drop file here and wait an uncertain amount of time for the server to handle the file without any feedback whatsoever.” and by forms you mean “enter your data here, then click submit and if we feel charitable we may reward you with a long list of errors you made. Some of which could have been avoided if you knew about them while filling in previous fields”.

        • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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          6 hours ago

          So - the situation is understood, but the question arises, what does this have in common with a global hypertext system for communication.

          Maybe all this functionality should be removed into a kind of plugin, similarly to how it was done with Flash and Java applets and other ancient history. Maybe sandboxed, yes.

          Maybe the parts of that kind of plugin relating to DOM, to execution, to interfaces should be standardized.

          Maybe such a page should look more like a LabView control model or like a Hypercard application, than what there is now.

          One huge benefit would be that Google goes out of business.

        • The_Decryptor@aussie.zone
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          16 hours ago

          It depends on the type of input validation you’re doing, a bunch of it is built into the browser and you don’t need JS for it.