For an united states sort of setup having one level of government representing the states particularly makes sense to me. EU has a similar setup (but much more complicated) and a suggestion that it’d just be based on popular vote would cause a civil war.
The EU has a representative setup, which is democratic. Nothing like the US Senate, which is designed to rob people of representation.
Again, governments justify their existence by serving people, full stop, not arbitrary land masses. What’s next, a tertiary chamber of Congress for corporations?
The EU has a representative setup, which is democratic. It is nothing like the US Senate, which was created specifically to undermine democracy.
I’m just saying Council of the European Union and European Council vs. European Parliament is same sort of separation between “popular vote” and member state governments and the reasoning is similar. There’s been a lot of discussion about how singular states can stop the will of the rest of the EU and so on. Taking away that veto is a real hot button issue.
Again, governments justify their existence by representing people, full stop, not arbitrary land masses.
Ostensibly the states should represent people, that is specifically their state’s people. Whereas congress and president should be more about the whole federation, as I’ve understood it. How well that works, well, that’s another matter.
What’s next, a tertiary chamber in Congress for corporations?
Ireland has something a bit like that:
"Most members of the Seanad Éireann, the upper house of the Oireachtas (parliament) of Ireland, are elected as part of vocational panels nominated partly by current Oireachtas members and partly by vocational and special interest associations. The Seanad also includes two university constituencies. "
If a federal government that levies taxes and enacts laws affecting individual citizens represents “states” in a manner disproportional to the population of these same citizens, the result is undemocratic.
This is a normative fact.
You can argue that autocracy isn’t that bad or that you don’t want to live in a democracy. But you can’t argue that giving some citizens hundreds of times the voting power over others is somehow democratic. Or is a person in California and Texas worth less than someone living in Alaska or Delaware? Why do they get less say in how they are taxed?
You are thinking of democracy as a binary thing instead of as a sliding scale. Not to mention you can have democratic form of government that isn’t very democratic or representative in actuality.
Federations often have that sort of two tiered setup where there’s general population vote and a level where each state can represent themselves as the states. The idea makes sense when you think of it as a federation of separate and equal units, with the state tier you make sure every state is equally represented. Otherwise they might not want to be part of the whole federation. Of course it can be horribly uneven when you consider the populations. But that’s not too different from EU, where amount of MEPs differs but council seats and number of commissioners stays the same. Both Germany with 83 million people and Malta with 0,5 million people have the same number of council seats, commissars and both have veto rights. Unsurprisingly it’s a topic that sometimes gets heated, but like i said, without it there’d be outrage because everyone would be worried of core big countries deciding everything. Many countries would probably fuck right off from the Union.
I think there’s been some misunderstanding here. None of this is some value take from me or me arguing for or against something. I haven’t at least consciously given much of an opinion on this, I’ve just described the reasoning behind the system and how it makes sense to me from the member state perspective.
For an united states sort of setup having one level of government representing the states particularly makes sense to me. EU has a similar setup (but much more complicated) and a suggestion that it’d just be based on popular vote would cause a civil war.
The EU has a representative setup, which is democratic. Nothing like the US Senate, which is designed to rob people of representation.
Again, governments justify their existence by serving people, full stop, not arbitrary land masses. What’s next, a tertiary chamber of Congress for corporations?
I’m just saying Council of the European Union and European Council vs. European Parliament is same sort of separation between “popular vote” and member state governments and the reasoning is similar. There’s been a lot of discussion about how singular states can stop the will of the rest of the EU and so on. Taking away that veto is a real hot button issue.
Ostensibly the states should represent people, that is specifically their state’s people. Whereas congress and president should be more about the whole federation, as I’ve understood it. How well that works, well, that’s another matter.
Ireland has something a bit like that:
"Most members of the Seanad Éireann, the upper house of the Oireachtas (parliament) of Ireland, are elected as part of vocational panels nominated partly by current Oireachtas members and partly by vocational and special interest associations. The Seanad also includes two university constituencies. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_and_Commercial_Panel
If a federal government that levies taxes and enacts laws affecting individual citizens represents “states” in a manner disproportional to the population of these same citizens, the result is undemocratic.
This is a normative fact.
You can argue that autocracy isn’t that bad or that you don’t want to live in a democracy. But you can’t argue that giving some citizens hundreds of times the voting power over others is somehow democratic. Or is a person in California and Texas worth less than someone living in Alaska or Delaware? Why do they get less say in how they are taxed?
1 person, 1 vote.
You are thinking of democracy as a binary thing instead of as a sliding scale. Not to mention you can have democratic form of government that isn’t very democratic or representative in actuality.
Federations often have that sort of two tiered setup where there’s general population vote and a level where each state can represent themselves as the states. The idea makes sense when you think of it as a federation of separate and equal units, with the state tier you make sure every state is equally represented. Otherwise they might not want to be part of the whole federation. Of course it can be horribly uneven when you consider the populations. But that’s not too different from EU, where amount of MEPs differs but council seats and number of commissioners stays the same. Both Germany with 83 million people and Malta with 0,5 million people have the same number of council seats, commissars and both have veto rights. Unsurprisingly it’s a topic that sometimes gets heated, but like i said, without it there’d be outrage because everyone would be worried of core big countries deciding everything. Many countries would probably fuck right off from the Union.
I think there’s been some misunderstanding here. None of this is some value take from me or me arguing for or against something. I haven’t at least consciously given much of an opinion on this, I’ve just described the reasoning behind the system and how it makes sense to me from the member state perspective.
Democracy is not binary. That is why democratic scholars consider the United States to be what’s called “a flawed democracy.”
And the Senate is one of those flaws.