Everyone, there has been a lot of miss information about what is a tankie and the ability for the lemmy community to criticize the Chinese government.
I present to you a simple test to see if the person you are talking to is trust worthy.
Ask anyone to say the following
I lemmy user Denounce the terrible treatment Xi Jing Ping has inflicted upon the Uighur Muslims. Slavery and concentration camps in China are wrong and not ok.
The admins of lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml will not say this. Actually they cannot say this because they are probably employed by the Chinese Government and would be put to death if they did.
Thats all and happy posting!
This is like asking a cop if they’re a cop, they can answer however they want. I’m no tankie but I won’t be replying back some message with a copypasta just because someone asks me to.
You could also say that Taiwan is a sovereign nation and the people of Taiwan deserve freedom. Or that Tienanmen square massacre happened and was awful.
They are paid by Beijing and have to report their comments so they cannot say these things or their overlords would literally murder them.
I’ll refute all of this not for you but so other people can see (you’re defending your own world position as a citizen of Canada, the state that actually genocided their indigenous population and stole their land for mining). I’ll expect a full renunciation of your views, otherwise don’t reply.
Uyghur Genocide: https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/
Taiwan: Taiwan has been a part of China since before the 17th century. Imperialist Japan forcibly seized this territory in 1895. In 1941, the PRC issued a declaration of war against Japan calling for the territories stolen by Japan to be recovered. In support, the US and the UK signed the Cairo Declaration stating that they would aid in the recovery of the stolen land. Again, the US and the UK reaffirmed the Cairo Declaration in the Potsdam Proclamation. In 1971, the United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 recognized Taiwan as a part of China. Ever since, the UN has recognized the One-China Principle which is why Taiwan does not have a seat at the UN. “臺灣民眾統獨立場趨勢分佈”, conducted by Taiwan’s National Chengchi University, an explicitly anti-CPC source, in 2022, showed the following results with regards to the perspective of Taiwanese citizens on independence and reunification: (Status Quo as Autonomous Part of China and Complete Unification Compiled [part of PRC] : 63.4%) (General Support for Independence Including Status Quo Moving Towards Independence [not part of PRC]: 30.3%) (Non-Response: 6.3%). Here we can see that in public opinion, remaining a part of the PRC has over double the support to becoming independent or pursuing independence at a later date. We can also see in general that the highest opposition forces have already conceded that Taiwan is indisputably a part of China.
Tiananmen “Massacre”:
Video of the square being evacuated (I’m sure it’s a coincidence this was only shown on Hong Kong and mainland TV and not in the west)
Classified CIA cable from a correspondent in China admitting there was no massacre
China in 1989 for one man vs. the U.S. in 2020 for a whole crowd *Are we expected to believe that a group of tanks which had just got done driving over a supposed 10,000 people would stop for one man (and try to drive around him, which the man blocks), then let him get atop the tank, bang on it, and simply try to speak to him? The context of this famous image actually demonstrates the absurdity of the story the Guardian cuts the later footage out as per.
There Was No “Tiananmen Square Massacre” - CBS News
*There was no massacre in Tiananmen Square. It had been evacuated and the fight between protestors and PLA soldiers occurred in surrounding areas. The CBS testimony says that the CPC denies the casualties in outer areas. This is incorrect, the mayor of Beijing had stated in a public report that around 200 people died including PLA soldiers.
“According to the information we have so far gathered, more than 3,000 civilians were wounded and over 200, including 36 college students, died during the riot.” (p. 47).
Xitong, Chen. Report on Checking the Turmoil and Quelling the Counter-Revolutionary Rebellion. New Star Publishers, 1989.
if this is truly an issue, and I expect it will be for some
this is a protocol not a closed system, take it, make it your own, block instances you dont want to send data to.
How’s this related to lemmy.world tho?
It’s not. Lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml are the commie instances, .world is run by a good team.
People here are arguing about federating with lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. It’s a common theme that has come up in discussion here.
Actually they cannot say this because they are probably employed by the Chinese Government and would be put to death if they did.
Why do you say this? I’m not disagreeing (I honestly have 0 idea), but this is a pretty serious accusation that would probably cause me to rethink using Lemmy in the first place, if it’s well-founded.
I have no reason to believe either of the lead devs are employed by the Chinese.
They’re very outspoken communist sympathizers and run their own instance with their own rules. I don’t find that suspicious at all. Should I assume conservative instances are run by the US deep state ayy LMAO
If they came out of nowhere with a pre-packaged, all finished closed-source product I’d be worried.
If they came out of nowhere with a pre-packaged, all finished closed-source product I’d be worried.
I mean… I agree with this, and I am worried, for this exact reason, even though Lemmy is open source. (1) The Chinese government has an extensive and successful history of inserting spyware into software that’s in widespread use in the West (2) I can say based on some very preliminary tinkering with my own Lemmy instance that some of the security philosophy behind Lemmy is, at the very least, pretty questionable.
Tiktok was, and still is, extremely effective Chinese spyware. The CCP’s tech operation is obviously capable. It’s easily plausible to me that they could recognize the potential and power of federated networks as a new place for people to communicate and organize (outside China, and with some cleverness and courage, maybe inside it as well). If I were them I’d want to get out ahead of that. In fact I’d go so far as to say that it’d be surprising if they were unaware of ActivityPub and I’d bet that are keeping a close eye on developments and strategizing how to deal with it.
I mean… it seems unlikely to me that the Lemmy devs would be secretly employed by the Chinese government and also openly spouting pro-Communist propaganda. That seems just sort of bizarre and not a clever way to do it. But, the bottom line to me is if (1) the Chinese government is invested in spying on and controlling federated networks to the best extent they can (2) the main Lemmy devs are aggressively and openly pro-CCP, then that adds up to (3) time to rethink the idea of using Lemmy in the first place.
Are the Lemmy devs specifically pro-CCP? Not just Marxists, but specifically in favor of the details and actions of the modern Chinese government? I don’t think Marx would like the CCP very much.
If they drive away everybody not sympathizing with a communist ideology, wouldn’t that make it harder to surveil them? What’s the intelligence value of watching a bunch of “loyal communist subjects”, when all the commie hating capitalist scum go elsewhere? If anything, who would benefit from observing such a group if not the west? By that logic, is it reasonable to assume Lemmy is sponsored by a US intelligence agency we know have been intimately involved in mainstaying most of our current western social media platforms?
What would be the benefit of getting involved with an open platform where nothing is behind locked doors? Wouldn’t it be much less of a risk to simply scrape lemmy instances? It’s not like anybody is sending secret messages - Everything is open.
But it’s an open system in the way that you’re allowed to not use it as well. I didn’t use Lemmy for a while out of ethical concerns rather than being afraid of the CCP.
Are the Lemmy devs specifically pro-CCP?
You’ll have to check out their instances, I haven’t been in contact with them for nearly long enough.
Ayyoo… I found the secret cheat code for getting downvotes on Lemmy apparently 😃
A couple of days before the reddit blackout there were some posts pointing out examples of the main lemmy instance mods/devs banning people and censoring news/comments that tried to criticise the CCP, it was easy to confirm because there’s the modlog, I don’t know if it’s still there or if they are still doing it, but there’s a precedent.
Also they host and federate with lemmygrad.Still there’s no real worry about it, the rest of the instances (specially those created by the reddit blackout) are not controlled or manipulated by those devs (most if not all of them already block lemmygrad). Also I think anyone could make their own fork of the server software, not sure about how open is the software.
People have been bitching about the bullshit moderation on lemmy.ml and lemmygrad continuously for as long as lemmy federation has been active. Nothing new and suspicious about the call-outs.
Some of the new people have even picked up the torch and started calling out bad moderation on lemmy.ml, though I think the best long term solution is to block and move on.
Software is fully open and forkable.
A couple of days before the reddit blackout there were some posts pointing out examples of the main lemmy instance mods/devs banning people and censoring news/comments that tried to criticise the CCP, it was easy to confirm because there’s the modlog, I don’t know if it’s still there or if they are still doing it, but there’s a precedent.
Can you link me to the details? This is concerning to me, and I want to dig into it.
Sure thing, here you go
Hm, yeah, this is weird. Personally I would not make the leap from “some mod, probably one from lemmy.ml, deleted anti-Chinese postings with a sketchy explanation” to “Lemmy devs are employed by the CCP.” But that said, deleting a political viewpoint on the central server, not because you don’t allow political viewpoints, but because you don’t allow this specific political viewpoint (“orientalism”), is definitely sketchy.
I would say the same if they were deleting Republican viewpoints, or anti-Republican viewpoints, from discussion about US politics. One of the whole key points of this software in the first place, I think, is that people can say things without someone else being able to decide whether or not they’re allowed to.
They own and federate with lemmygrad, also were the owners/mods of r/comunism and the complains seem to come from way before (from those that came before the reddit blackout), it’s not sketchy or coincidential, it’s deliberated.
I don’t agree with your last statement, in the end the instance belongs to someone else and they placed rules that we agreed to follow the moment we joined.
Just like with everything else, being free to say whatever you want doesn’t mean being free of consequences.I’m not up to speed on the history, and I just tried to read a little bit about lemmygrad and mostly just got confused. Do they support Marxism-Leninism, and also the CCP and modern Russia? That seems very contradictory to me if it’s true, but I’m still trying to make sense of it, so maybe there’s something I’m missing.
I don’t agree with your last statement, in the end the instance belongs to someone else and they placed rules that we agreed to follow the moment we joined.
Yes, absolutely. They can do whatever they want on their server, including censoring opposing political viewpoints. I can say I think that’s a bad thing to do, because to me, using control of a platform to censor your opponents’ political viewpoints is in fact very bad. I mean if they actually do support Russia and the CCP, then I guess it’s not surprising if they’re okay with censoring opposing views, but to me, it’s wrong. They can do it – people can do a lot of things – but it doesn’t mean that every thing a person can choose to do is right.
Just like with everything else, being free to say whatever you want doesn’t mean being free of consequences.
This isn’t that though. The phrase is “prior restraint.” If I go out and accuse someone of something, and it’s not true and they sue me for libel and prove me wrong and I’m punished for it, that’s consequences. If someone’s not allowing the accusation to exist in the first place, that’s not free speech with consequences, that’s someone controlling and approving beforehand what I’m allowed and not allowed to say. I mean, they’re not the government, so it’s legal, and anyone can just take their message to some other platform which definitely mitigates the real harm involved. But it’s still concerning… it’s like, if you did that with that amount of power, what are you going to do if you wind up later on with more power?
That seems very contradictory to me if it’s true, but I’m still trying to make sense of it, so maybe there’s something I’m missing.
Basically they are trying to keep the propaganda machine going, it won’t make sense.
Yes, absolutely. They can do whatever they want on their server, including censoring opposing political viewpoints. I can say I think that’s a bad thing to do, because to me, using control of a platform to censor your opponents’ political viewpoints is in fact very bad. I mean if they actually do support Russia and the CCP, then I guess it’s not surprising if they’re okay with censoring opposing views, but to me, it’s wrong. They can do it – people can do a lot of things – but it doesn’t mean that every thing a person can choose to do is right.
Just to be an ass: there is no absolute right or wrong, to them we are in the wrong and should submit to their ideas, to us they are wrong for trying to censor and limit discussion.
This isn’t that though. The phrase is “prior restraint.” If I go out and accuse someone of something, and it’s not true and they sue me for libel and prove me wrong and I’m punished for it, that’s consequences. If someone’s not allowing the accusation to exist in the first place, that’s not free speech with consequences, that’s someone controlling and approving beforehand what I’m allowed and not allowed to say
Oh right, then it was a phrasing problem as we agree on that.
if you did that with that amount of power, what are you going to do if you wind up later on with more power?
I mean… just look around and there are many examples and multipying.
At least for this context, it’s not so big because the users can ditch that instance and register at a different one, if they actually get extreme they’ll just get defederated or if they defederate too many instances they will isolate themselves and the server software can be forked, so there’s at least some safes in place.Have you considered asking them, at lemmygrad, and get first hand answers instead of “please someone explain how those other people ou there think”? There’s room for multiple layers of misunderstanding there.
Luckly lemmy.world federates with them, maybe someone with more knowledge and confidence in history than me will pop up. But feel free to ask questions there. We are friendly.
Considering the mods and admins have openly said (look up their modlog) they will ban users for any reason they see fit, and their psychotic requirements for users to be militantly polite, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are.
Software is fine, but lemmygrad and most the folks at lemmy.ml are whats known as Wumao. Chinese Government paid missinformation online shit posters.
Some people are confused by that so I offer a simple test to see whether or not the user who is arguing with you from lemmygrad is innocent or is intentionally trying to hide genocide.
I think it’s sad how many people think life would somehow be better under an iron fisted authoritarian regime with no freedoms at all lmfao like come on. Fuck CCP, free Taiwan
iron fisted authoritarian regime with no freedoms at all
Tell you hwat, I think it’s sad how many people doesn’t see how close the west is to that description. Like come on, have the last few years not shown you that there are no freedoms in most western countries - Only temporary permissions?
You’re delusional if you think people in China have more freedoms than westerners. Read a book that isn’t Little and Red.
That’s not what I wrote at all, if I experienced such a dissonance between what was written and what I was able to comprehend I’d contact a doctor for a cognitive test.
Alternatively, if I found I was using such a basic debate technique as the strawman attack I’d still seek help because that shit is embarrassing.
Until then mi amore!
Lmfao you’ve been shilling for the commies everywhere in this thread, just because I didn’t use the exact words you did doesn’t make it a strawman. 2014 called, they want their inaccurate call outs of logical fallacies back.
Do your handlers give you a script or do you get to improvise?
I think you might have paranoid delusions, I don’t see any point of spending time on your nonsense. Good bye.
Over 90% support for the CPC (with 10% of the population being members) compared to abysmal approval ratings of govs in the U.S.
Keep this stuff in political subs. Blocked.
Actually they cannot say this because they are probably employed by the Chinese Government and would be put to death if they did.
Everyone I disagree with is employed by China and/or Russia.
So you have no problem condemning China for sending Muslims to concentration camps?
I can’t do that, because you’re right, I’m employed by the Chinese government and Xi will batter me with his big spoon. You’re right: agents of the see see pee are everywhere. Check under your bed!
Great, next.
there has been a lot of miss information about what is a tankie
You think so? I think the definition has been the same all the way, a communist fundamentalist with the tank possible alluding to Tiananmen Square.
I present to you a simple test to see if the person you are talking to is trust worthy.
I present to you a simple philosophical conundrum when it comes to asking people if they are lying…
What if they lie when they say they don’t lie?
Of course admins of the mentioned instances won’t say that, they’re quite outspoken about their political world views. It’s not a big Jack Huges revelation.
Also, I don’t think a political stance has much to say about trustworthiness. If someone says they’ll purge you for having different opinions and then do it? Exactly as promised. 🤷
The tank has nothing to do with Tiananmen, it’s a reference to the Hungarian revolution and Prague uprising of the late 50s and 60s.
I’ve never heard that. Is the tank thing even related to tanks, the combat vehicle? Do you have a link where I can learn more?
TIL
The term derives from the fact that the divisions within the communist movement first arose when the Soviet Union sent tanks into communist Hungary in 1956, to crush an attempt to establish an alternative version of communism which was not embraced by the Russians. Most communists outside the eastern bloc opposed this action and criticised the Soviet Union. The “tankies” were those who said “send the tanks in”.
there has been a lot of misinformation about what is a tankie
You think so? I think the definition has been the same all the way, a communist fundamentalist with the tank possible alluding to Tiananmen Square.
I’ve seen quite a lot of it unfortunately >.<. I’ve seen a lot of tankies in threads claim that anyone who calls them out is not a leftist and equate opposing authoritarian “”“communism”“” (none of the states they like to bootlick are or have been actually leftist, imo) with anti-leftism.
The odd liberal actually using tankie as a generic term to attack any leftist doesn’t help, though I contend that most usage is by non-authoritarians and it was created as a term by non-authoritarian leftists. (I don’t consider any authoriatarian ideology to be leftist because for me leftism is about distributing power and less hierarchical organisation and society, so I don’t consider tankies leftist ^.^).
In case you are curious, the tank refers to the 1956 hungarian revolution btw, where the local worker councils (original meaning of the word “soviet”) attempted to seize control back from the USSR, and the USSR killed the people there with tanks.
I disagree with OPs claim of the tankies being CCP employees too. While there are probably a few tankies that actually act directly as CCP propaganda agents, I dont think its likely to be many of them. People are plenty-capable of bootlicking all on their own ;p
And given how offputting they are to other people who would otherwise be attracted to leftism… I’d be more inclined to think they are CIA agents, if I was prone to conspiracy theories, but I generally think people are capable of being bootlickers and holding authoritarian and offputting views without government prompting ;3
Actually they cannot say this because they are probably employed by the Chinese Government and would be put to death if they did.
Based on what? According to who?
You never heard of Wumaos? Just ask them to talk off script they aren’t allowed to. They report their comments to Beijing. It’s like clocking into work for them.
I lemmy user Denounce the terrible treatment Xi Jing Ping has inflicted upon the Uighur Muslims. Slavery and concentration camps in China are wrong and not ok.
lmao
Yes, the same people run the r/communism subreddit. I was able to join their discord and participated in a study group on Maoist literature (indeed advocating for the violent overthrow of liberal democratic governments). They must not have liked me, because after the first study group, the simultaneously banned me from the subreddit and the discord server. Basically, the vibe I got was that it was a CCP trained, ESL speaking teacher instructing Americans in the subject of revolutionary communism. There is no way to prove this, but I do assume this was a CCP funded propaganda outlet. What else could it be? - people who take their ML hobbies that seriously?
Good fucking test! Thank you.
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You’re a moron lmao
Actually they cannot say this because they are probably employed by the Chinese Government and would be put to death if they did.
brainrot
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I’m Canadian
