I meant they block so much but actually fully allow everything by allowing vpn without any punishment. Seems like a huge waste of money to maintain a firewall that they no longer want to enforce.
Have you tried engaging in a good-faith discussion instead of whatever half-witted rage-bait you attempted the first time?
Last week highly-upvoted comment on reddit claimed that environmentalism is nothing more than russian-bot fueled fad.
Normally when people refer to “.ml” they mean the dev instance, lemmy.ml, not lemmigrad.ml.
I’m not commenting on the substance of your post, just pointing out the mismatch.
Grad is definitely worse than ml, but enough people on ml are tankies (including the devs) that it’s easy to group both together.
They are both pretty extreme.
leftist extremism is good
yeah right
both cults, one worse than the other?
lemmy.ml is just lemmygrad.ml wearing a mask - badly.
Comments are wild here
Cry more, bigot. I see the comments you’ve had removed by mods.
You not posting this in context makes you super untrustworthy in my book.
You went into a community which defines itself as Tankies, compared them to Fascists, and now you come here whining about it?
A bullshit false equivalence that only serves to amplify alt-right messaging? Yeah, I’d downvote that garbage, too.
Holy shit can you keep this dogshit on meanwhileongrad?? Like we get it there are crazy soviets on the internet, get over it you don’t need to turn every server into meanwhile
Not necessarily the best example in this post, but in general, I find I get downvoted a lot when I make a good faith comment in .ml posts where I think I’m agreeing and am trying to understand the topic further. Getting 20 downvotes kind of kills my motivation to engage any further, though, so I usually just delete my comment , shrug, and move on. I’ve gotten to the point where I try to avoid wasting my time and energy commenting on .ml posts in the first place.
Maybe it’s just a different perspective on what a downvote means? To me, I’m generous with upvotes and withholding an upvote means I don’t find it interesting or disagree. I use downvotes sparingly for spam, trolling, comments made in bad faith, etc.
A downvote in my mind roughly translates to “fuck off”, so if a group gangs up and tells everyone with a slightly different worldview to fuck off, then they eventually will and said group will be all by themselves in their own echo chamber. If that’s the goal, then fair enough.
That’s lemmygrad (THE tankie instance, with Hexbear), not lemmy.ml (the dev’s instance). Please do not conflate them together. And I say this as a dbzero user.
I’m banned from a bunch of random places cuz I made a joke about Jack Ma disappearing for “re-education”. Loud critic of the CCP. Goes missing unexpectedly for a bit. Returns and suddenly sings the praises of the CCP. Definitely not fishy at all and you can’t joke about it.
Serves you right for having a reasonable opinion.
The only difference between a tankie and a fascist is the name they give themselves.
The only difference between a tankie and a fascist is the name they give themselves.
Don’t you think the racism of one of them has a bit more of a consequence than of the other?
I completely agree.
And now, when writing this… Argh. Uyghurs. You absolutely cannot compare it to what Nazis did, but if you compare it to what other fascist countries died then yes, that’s quite some consequence.
I still would not write an equal sign between fascists and tankies, though.
In the end, tankie is a type of a socialist, and one becomes socialist through a will to do good. Being a tankie is some EXTREMELY fucking ill-advised way to do good, because the result is indeed very very bad. But you don’t really become a fascist in order to do good. You become a fascist because you think you are worth more than others.
I think being a tankie is about the goal being more important than the means – all the way to an extent where the means completely obliterate the goal. And being a fascist is about deciding that being limitlessly selfish is okay. One is at least trying to have a good goal. The other one is just… “Everything for ME and MY TRIBE, all others should DIE!” But in the end, what’s being done to Uyghurs is just horror. Being thrown into a concentration camp and being subjected to various inhumane experiments is already on a very high level of evil to have to experience.
And now, when writing this… Argh. Uyghurs. You absolutely cannot compare it to what Nazis did, but if you compare it to what other fascist countries died then yes, that’s quite some consequence.
You could also compare it to things “democratic” countries have done. America for one has had decades of segregation based on ethnicity and has had concentration camps for ethnic minorities, not to mention a genocide against indigenous peoples.
If we are using that to tell how much like Nazis a nation is plenty of democratic countries are a lot closer to Nazi Germany than China.
In the end, tankie is a type of a socialist, and one becomes socialist through a will to do good. Being a tankie is some EXTREMELY fucking ill-advised way to do good, because the result is indeed very very bad.
I’m not claiming that China has never done anything that I don’t agree with, however if we are measuring their results, it’s hard to conclude that it’s ill advised. In the last 40 years China has lifted nearly a billion people out of extreme poverty and has done so with out endless cycles of wars.
Meanwhile democratic nations in the West have seen more of their citizens slide into to poverty while killing millions of people in forever wars.
But in the end, what’s being done to Uyghurs is just horror. Being thrown into a concentration camp and being subjected to various inhumane experiments is already on a very high level of evil to have to experience.
Again, I don’t agree with a lot of the CCP policies. That being said, I do think there are some exaggerations when it comes to the Uyghur people, though based on their own information I would say there is a pattern of ethnic prejudice
That being said, even if we use the most inflammatory information from western media and utilize the high estimate of 1.8 million ethnic minorities being put into reeducation camps. That’s less than 1/6th of the Uyghur population in China. Less than the 2 million people currently incarcerated in the US, of those whom nearly 40% are from an ethnic minority who only make up around 10% of the total population.
This is not my attempt of a whataboutism, just trying to illiustrate that unjustifiable national policy is not unique to socialist or democratic capitalist governments.
You could also compare it to things “democratic” countries have done. America for one has had decades of segregation based on ethnicity and has had concentration camps for ethnic minorities, not to mention a genocide against indigenous peoples.
Yes, you can. Generally, any country where an ideology goes over individuals’ well-being tends to do this shit. China does, USA does as well. Not terribly surprising.
1/6 on camps is a LOT. It does fulfill the definition of genocide.
What makes you think that USA is relevant here? I am not from USA. USA is not a part of China, nor the other way around.
This is not my attempt of a whataboutism, just trying to illiustrate that unjustifiable national policy is not unique to socialist or democratic capitalist governments.
Show me a democratic country where this happens. You’re giving me China and USA. And there’s also the Russia. But is there actually a democratic country where people are handled they way countries such as USA and China do?
What makes you think that USA is relevant here? I am not from USA. USA is not a part of China, nor the other way around.
My point was that any specific economic policy or government style does not necessarily dictate the outcomes of the people it is in charge of. If this is similar to your belief, then I would question why you elected to make a statement that seemed to limit itself to a binary of fascist/“tankies”.
1/6 on camps is a LOT. It does fulfill the definition of genocide.
Again, that is using the most hyperbolic estimate. Also, I do not think temporarily holding a percent of an ethnicity in an internment camp is enough to call something a genocide. It’s definitely not great, and is systemic ethnic prejudice, but I don’t know if that would qualify as a genocide.
The US put 80% of Japanese Americans in interment camps during ww2 and I’ve never heard that referenced as a genocide.
What makes you think that USA is relevant here? I am not from USA. USA is not a part of China, nor the other way around.
I think I explained in the last paragraph of my original argument that it was to provide relevant comparison of similar examples that were not fascist nor “tankies”.
In your claim you said that you shouldn’t be a tankie because it led to bad/evil results. Would you also claim you shouldn’t be a liberal democracy because it leads to bad/evil results?
Show me a democratic country where this happens. You’re giving me China and USA. And there’s also the Russia.
First of all…how is the US not a democratic country? It may not be a great one, but it still has free and fair elections. If the US is not a liberal democracy… What is it?
Secondly, there have been plenty examples of democratic countries having unjustifiable foreign and domestic policies.
Just off the top of my head Canada has a brutal history of suppressing their native inhabitants that endures to the modern age. Both france and the UK also had interment camps during ww2. The UK committed a genocidal famine against ireland and Bengal as a democratic nation. Most of the worst aspects of colonialism were conducted after European powers transitioned out of absolute monarchies into democracies. South Africa and Israel both conducted an apartheid state in modern times, one going further into a genocide of Palestinians.
And more than likely the nation you currently live in has materially or militarily aided the US in one of their unjustifiable wars in the middle East.
Ok, you’re giving me the US, Canada, the UK and France, but can you give me one REALLY democratic country??? /s
His actual response was just as bad
No idea of what’s been going on in Canada. POW camps don’t really count. Nor any camps where the goal is not the removal of an ethnicity or nationality from from a region. The question about Israel’s democracy is an interesting one that I need to ponded more!
So your honor, my defense is an appeal to ignorance with a healthy side of “Nu-uh”.
Also, the US is totally not a democratic government, but Israel…
why you elected to make a statement that seemed to limit itself to a binary of fascist/"tankies”.
Because that is the subject we are talking about. We are talking about to what extent tankies are similar to fascists.
Also, I do not think temporarily holding a percent of an ethnicity in an internment camp is enough to call something a genocide.
Temporarily, not. But anything that forces people to have to lose their national or thnic identity is genocide. We are not talking about any temporary internment camps here. (I’m not sure if temporary internment camps based on ethnicity have ever even existed…)
to provide relevant comparison of similar examples that were not fascist nor “tankies”.
If they do not support using a country’s military against its own population nor are fascists, how are they relevant to this discussion that is intentionally limited to those two groups?
First of all……how is the US not a democratic country?
Uh… Read the news maybe? WTF kind of question is this? How is it a democratic country?
Just off the top of my head Canada has a brutal history of suppressing their native inhabitants that endures to the modern age. Both france and the UK also had interment camps during ww2.
No idea of what’s been going on in Canada. POW camps don’t really count. Nor any camps where the goal is not the removal of an ethnicity or nationality from from a region.
The question about Israel’s democracy is an interesting one that I need to ponded more!Because that is the subject we are talking about. We are talking about to what extent tankies are similar to fascists.
And my rebuttal proves that those qualities are not really unique to fascism nor “tankies” and are therefore redundant. You could have just as easily said governments do governmental things and would have made just as valid as a point.
Temporarily, not. But anything that forces people to have to lose their national or thnic identity is genocide. We are not talking about any temporary internment camps here. (I’m not sure if temporary internment camps based on ethnicity have ever even existed…)
And what proof is there that they are loosing their ethnic or national identity?
Secondly even the most inflammatory citations about the interment camps do not claim they are indefinite, mostly claiming that they are held for 10 months to two years.
Lastly, interning Japanese Americans during ww2 is an example of temporary internment camps based on ethnicity.
If they do not support using a country’s military against its own population nor are fascists, how are they relevant to this discussion that is intentionally limited to those two groups?
I provided several examples of democratic nations using their military against their own citizens. I have also already explained the reason it was relevant was because it disproves your claim.
Uh… Read the news maybe? WTF kind of question is this? How is it a democratic country?
Lol, do you know how a democratic nation is defined? Any country that derives it’s authority through elected representatives is a democratic nation. Just because those democratically elected officials are conducting themselves in a way that you or I do not agree with does not mean it’s not a democracy.
Democracy does not mean “only does good” it’s an organizational hierarchy that reflects the political majority.
No idea of what’s been going on in Canada.
Ahh, so ignorance is your defense…great.
POW camps don’t really count. Nor any camps where the goal is not the removal of an ethnicity or nationality from from a region.
Wut? You do know that one of the main reasons for Nazi concentration camps were for pows…
Is your claim that democratic countries are morally just in any action so long as they aren’t utilized solely for ethnic cleansing? Also… That would preclude the Uyghur internment camps as they are not being removed from China or Xijiang.
Also, I do not think temporarily holding a percent of an ethnicity in an internment camp is enough to call something a genocide.
Do you really want to defend holding any percentage of people in an internment camp based on their ethnicity? And this applies to USA too. Holding anyone on an internment camp is bad enough, but because of ethnicity?! That’s not only racism, that’s fast track to genocide if it’s not already happening
Do you really want to defend holding any percentage of people in an internment camp based on their ethnicity?
Did I say I was defending that… Or did I just say it wasn’t considered a genocide? Pretty sure I started the argument by saying i didn’t agree with all CCP policy, and that the treatment of the Uyghur people would be systemic ethnic prejudice, which is self evidently bad.
Again, my point isn’t to nullify all criticism, just to point out that there seems to be a double standard when people speak about the same crimes carried by both democratic and socialist governments.
thrown into a concentration camp and being subjected to various inhumane experiments
Man it’s so cool that red scare propaganda in the current age has a kind of SCP collaborative fiction vibe to it, where you can just Say Shit and riff on it to adjust reality to “your” (the state department’s) specifications.
The vast majority of muslim nations on earth got together to send delegates to investigate in person and they declared the accusations to be baseless.
My experiences with Uyghurs differ from yours. I was backpacking in Kazakstan and China and the repression was easy to notice with bare eyes. The Uyghurs wouldn’t be that scared of a 7-year-old Han-girl if there was no repression.
How was your visit to East Türkestan?
Oh, and Uyghurs are not Arabs, BTW! They are a Turkic nation.
My experiences with Uyghurs differ from yours.
Cool story bro.
The vast majority of muslim nations on earth got together to send delegates to investigate in person and they declared the accusations to be baseless.
Oh, and Uyghurs are not Arabs, BTW! They are a Turkic nation.
Oh, and not all Muslims are Arabs, BTW!
repression was easy to notice with bare eyes
Did you try talking to anyone? Its difficult because google translate doesn’t do Uhygur speech-to-text, but does translate Uhygur as Kazakh kind of.
That’s not to say there’s not serious issues, but it seemed plainly obvious to my bare eyes that the bulk of the claims of genocide are outright fabrications.
Some knew some English, partially I used the rudimentary Turkish I know, partially I used a Mandarin to English translator tool. Mostly I ended up being hosted by people who knew some English.
It ended up being a mix of Turkish, Chinese and English in the end.
Listen, FUCK the IAEA you could see those Iraqi chemical weapons factories with your bare eyes
Where did I get this red fish from?? Got an answer for that??
Listen, FUCK the IAEA you could see those Iraqi chemical weapons factories with your bare eyes
Hehe, and how many were actually found after Iraq had been succesfully invaded? Correct.
my point was calling you stupid and you agreed with me
Your experiences are worthless, try shutting the fuck up and listening
Well, your source is shit.
And so is the video linked. You can also use your own logic to notice its fallacies. You don’t get just anyone invited to a soccer match. It’s an important situation for propaganda, so you only allow people there who know what truth to say if anyone asks. And what kind of face to show. Ones that know what will happen to them and their relatives if they fall off the line.
I don’t know why you believe the “dude trust me” guy on the video. Nor why I should trust you, dude.
State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China | Colum Lynch, Foreign Policy. (2021)
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, “The review did not substantiate the allegations.” (See: World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China)
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (A/HRC/41/G/17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang.
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States in 2019 which:
- Welcomes the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat’s delegation upon invitation from the People’s Republic of China; commends the efforts of the People’s Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and looks forward to further cooperation between the OIC and the People’s Republic of China.
Books, Articles, or Essays:
- Egyptian media delegates provide a detailed insight of the situation in Xinjiang | (2019)
- The Xinjiang Atrocity Propaganda Blitz | Nia Frome (2021)
- Xinjiang: A Report and Resource Compilation | Qiao Collective (2021)
- Xinjiang: Understanding Complexity, Building Peace | International Diplomatic Institute (2021)
- Fight against Terrorism and Extremism in Xinjiang: Truth and Facts | Information Office of the People’s Government of Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region (2022)
This is like red scare orientalist bingo. You have
-Public events are actually a propagands show for whitey
-Showing face
-Everyone there is only pretending to be happy because Something Bad will happen to their families (how many generations?) if they don’t.
At what point does believing all of these conventient copes to get around having to engage with the concept of an actually popular government start to take on the qualities of a cult’s belief structure?
Man i fucking hate The Interview
Yes, because China is well known to assasinate diplomats and family members of political opponents in dozens of countries around the world…
I didn’t post a link to any videos dumbass, my source is the verifiable fact that the majority of muslim nations on earth investigated in person and are calling bullshit on us. They have far more credibility than the US and our lackeys and our media, there is no actual evidence to contradict their findings, it’s the same sort of atrocity propaganda we used to justify invading Iraq & Afghanistan.
It’s hard to see tankies ever have that good goal. They really really defend the oppression they achieve
I believe at the point they have already become tankies, no good goal exists anymore. They only seem to work to defend what they have already achieved. And that is oppression.
I’m not sure socialism or communism can ever be made to work, but at least Marx and Lenin made it much more difficult to ever get there by demandinfmg we do the opposite of the goals of communism in order to get communism. People who are okay with cleansings and repression will cleanse and repress.
You don’t really go through the chore of reading Capital without really wanting to change the society for better. And because Marx, the death of communism, preferred violence and is convincing with his way of argumentation (at least if you’re a bit stupid), those who read the book until the end, end up forfeiting all good goals and will go for repression.
Tankies are people who used to want good things and fairness. And then they converted from that into tankies.
A strong leader will always lead you into a Russia. Into a quagmire.
Marx… is convincing with his way of argumentation (at least if you’re a bit stupid)
I’m sorry, what? Have you ever actually tried to read Capital? Most of Marx’s works are dense and academic, drawing intellectual traditions that are often unfamiliar to modern readers (classical economics, Hegel, etc). Marx’s way of argumentation isn’t really geared toward the lowest common denominator.
It’s kinda funny how you can’t even keep your criticism straight through a single comment. In one sentence, reading Marx is a “chore” that nobody would want to slog through, in the very next one, Marx is so persuasive, his honeyed words easily sway the minds of any who stumble across them, like the Sirens calling ships to their rocks.
As for “no good goal exists anymore” or “it’s hard to see what good goal tankies ever had” maybe we just like it when this sort of thing happens:
The revolution that feeds the children gets my support.
When you figure out a better way to do that, get back to me.
When you figure out a better way to do that, get back to me.
Here goes:
A similar jump from around 1949 to 1980. In China it seems to have begun around 1930, with WWII causing a dent. In Finland the same had begun around 1880’s. But the development between 1949 and 1980 is very similar, only: without concentration camps! (…since 1918.)
without concentration camps!
Wrong as shit, how are you so ignorant about your own history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Karelian_concentration_camps
That’s still not as fast of a development, and the conditions aren’t really comparable. China used to be among the poorest countries in the world.
And while their government has not always been ideal, it was undoubtably the best option on the table historically. The corrupt Nationalists didn’t do shit for the people (and pocketed foreign aid). Before that, with no central authority, was the warlord period. Before that was the backwards Qing dynasty. In all the thousands of years of Chinese history, nobody really did anything for the rural people until the communists.
This is nonsense, the only part you got correct is that those who read through Capital generally have an interest in a better world. Neither Marx nor Lenin advocated “doing the opposite” to get to communism, both argued for the establishment of a worker state to gradually collectivize all of the means of production and distribution. Historically, this method has been enormously beneficial for the working classes, while breing quite scary for landlords, capitalists, slavers, and fascists.
I’m also not at all understanding what you mean by Marx being “convincing with his way of argumentation (at least if you’re a bit stupid).” What would an intelligent person, by your estimation, take fault with in Marx?
What would an intelligent person, by your estimation, take fault with in Marx[‘s Capital]?
Capital rests on the argument ~that the fact qualitatively different (in terms of use values) commodities are exchanged for each other in different quantities requires a quality they share in common which only differs in quantity from one commodity to the next, and Marx posits that the only quality this could be is being products of labor. Yet this is very clearly not something that all commodities have in common, and that a thing’s status as a commodity and its ability to be exchanged for other commodities has nothing to do with its being a product of labor. The only way Marx’s argument can be accepted is if you start with the presupposition that commodities are valued by the labor required to produce them.
How this happens that commodities are exchanged at their “value” is a complete mystery by the way, since Marx says it has nothing to do with the conscious considerations of either the buyer or the seller.
Yet this is very clearly not something that all commodities have in common
This is not clear at all. Elaborate, please.
and that a thing’s status as a commodity and its ability to be exchanged for other commodities has nothing to do with its being a product of labor
Why not? Are you saying that the utility of a commodity to someone does not change whether or not it was made with labor? This doesn’t really matter, though, the point of the Law of Value is that commodities are socially produced, and socially distributed, which normalizes their price around their values. Arguments like the “mud pie” don’t apply, because mud pies are neither useful nor difficult to make.
The only way Marx’s argument can be accepted is if you start with the presupposition that commodities are valued by the labor required to produce them.
Incorrect, the exchange-value that price fluctuates around is representative of the value in a commodity. Another way to look at it is that the value of a commodity is the sum of its inputs, which can be reduced to labor and natural resources.
How this happens that commodities are exchanged at their “value” is a complete mystery by the way, since Marx says it has nothing to do with the conscious considerations of either the buyer or the seller.
Marx is correct, though this is no mystery. Commodities are social products, and are socially exchanged. What’s universal to goods bought and sold is that they require natural resources and human labor to create them, thus capitalism in being a social process acts as a price-finder for commodities, all based on inputs and outputs.
What would an intelligent person, by your estimation, take fault with in Marx?
The dictatorship of the proletariat was a horribly bad idea. It’s a dictatorship. And brings the consequences of a dictatorship with it. I would dare to blame Lenin and also Marx for that crap.
The dictatorship of the proletariat is a democratic state for the proletariat, and dictatorship against capitalists, fascists, landlords, and slavers. It’s the socialist equivalent to liberal democracy, which de facto is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
All states are class dictatorships, this means democracy for the ruling class and its absolute rule over the rest.
Also, not sure why you brought up Capital if you’re talking about the DotP, that’s not really in Capital. Capital is a critique of bourgeois Political Economy.
i recommend this recent video by Eric Hovagim to learn more about the Uyghur topic (but i guess you’ll probably skip it based on its title?)
Who has time for videos? Reading is much faster.
(I generally skip all video links, nothing personal)
I did watch the first three minutes. Everything he shows is true, everything he explains as interpretation is just full of shit.
“Why?”
Well, for the same reason Soviet Union was doing the same to its colonies. Or why France was doing the same to its.Blargh, the guy’s eaten the hook with bait and floater.
colonies
If you think China colonized Xinjiang, well… yeah, they did. But that was 22 centuries ago, a millennium before the [people now known as] Uyghurs had even arrived there. The demographics and ruling empires unsurprisingly changed a few times in the ensuing millennia, but since the Qing dynasty committed the Dzungar genocide there (from 1755–1758, with help of several peoples including Han and Uyghur) it has mostly remained a part of China.
The ancient history is interesting, but more recent events (eg Al-Qaeda-affiliated groups the US has been funding there) are more relevant to the present situation.
I did watch the first three minutes. Everything he shows is true, everything he explains as interpretation is just full of shit.
What specifically is he full of shit about? I recommend watching more than three minutes of it.
Well, for the same reason Soviet Union was doing the same to its colonies. Or why France was doing the same to its.
Ok, can you tell the reason why? What is the thing that China wants that can only be achieved by mass murder and genocide of its working population?
I don’t think there’s anything that can only be achieved by that.
But generally in China the CCP is who decides about everything that happens in the country. Being religious is one of the things that are against the official template of how a person should be. Any religion is a problem, but a nation as religious as Uyghurs is considered a problem.
And of course: Just look at the clocks. Any clock in the Uyghur areas is showing the local time, not Beijing time. Only clocks at railway stations, police stations and such show the Beijing time. The people there are far too independent for Beijing’s liking. Or yours.
the CCP is who decides about everything that happens in the country
The CPC has 100 million members, it’s their job to represent the people. This is like saying “the government decides what happens”
Any clock in the Uyghur areas is showing the local time, not Beijing time
I spent 3 months in Xinjiang, I didn’t notice this, but can’t remember the last time I looked at a clock that wasn’t on a phone.
Any religion is a problem
You’re recycling anti-soviet propaganda. China isn’t atheist. For China, they officially support religion, but in practice recognize religious organizations as potential problems due to history, from the boxer rebellion to Fulong gong to ETIM terrorist attacks. They reconcile this by providing funding and official support to religious institutions, but exert pressure (I’m unclear how exactly) to promote less radical factions and don’t provide as many special privileges in areas where there’s risks of extremism, for example there’s religious schools in Xi’an, but not Urumqi. Personally I think the situation with private schools and hukou is a mess that needs to be addressed in a way that doesn’t ration education by income and zip code, but as an outsider, I don’t have the nuanced understanding how to do this in a way that doesn’t impinge on the rights of minorities and helps to preserve their culture, but the Chinese I’ve asked about this seem less concerned about losing aspects of their own unique cultures than having a common language and understanding, which IMO is a god-awful take, discarding the work of millennia of human development.
nation as religious as Uyghurs
How do you measure how religious a group of people are?
The Soviet Union had no colonies. This was always projection on the part of colonial and neocolonial countries for the USSR’s unwavering support for national liberation struggles, which earned them incredible amounts of sanctions.
Do you think the current colonies of the Russia somehow appeared out of thin air? All of the Russia’s current territory has been Soviet territory in the past. All of the Russia’s colonies were of course also Soviet colonies.
What are you referencing when you say current Russian colonies? Pretty much all Russian colonization happened in the 16th century in Siberia and central asia under imperial Russia. The only colonization other than that was in Alaska and in parts of northern California in the 18th century, while still under the imperial regime.
Modern Russia had no colonies to inherit, it has no colonies. The Soviet Union liberated the Tsar’s colonies and thus modern Russia had none to inherit.
That was quite informative, thanks for sharing!
I skipped it based on your instance.
Seems like a stupid thing to do and an even stupider thing to voluntarily admit
Anti-intellectualism truly is on the rise.
The tankies have descended upon the thread I see.
Anti-intellectualism exists anywhere you’re peddling your authoritarian, genocide-denial sophistry, so kindly (or unkindly, I literally don’t give a fuck), fuck off.
Edit to anyone reading this thread: note that (especially in the case of Cowbee) not engaging is the only way to deal with tankies, regardless of how much engagement bait they throw in their comments!
They’re self-admittedly only here to propagandize/whitewash their authoritarian views in the first place, their arguments are based on a completely different set of facts from the reality that you live in, and no matter how reasonable they make themselves sound, they aren’t here to argue in good faith. YOU WILL NOT WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH THEM HERE BECAUSE THEY AREN’T ACTUALLY ENGAGING WITH YOUR POINTS - YOU WILL ONLY MAKE THEIR CAREFULLY SANITIZED POSITIONS SEEM MORE REASONABLE TO OTHERS READING THE THREAD.
So don’t give them the satisfaction.
“Plugging your ears and running away is the only way to deal with people who have unanswerable critiques of my way of thinking. For your own safety, you must terminate critical thought immediately.”
Dude you would have to waterboard me for six business days to get me to admit to that kind of ideological weakness
What a weird statement. I replied to you saying you reflexively ignored information purely because the person posting it has a Lemmy.ml account, this is just blatant anti intellectualism and forcing yourself into an echo chamber. Not sure what you mean by “authoritarian, genocide-denial sophistry” either.
Edit for your edit:
This is just mental gymnastics to justify your own echo-chamber.
This would assume the tankie-fascist isn’t also racist
“Let us assume that my political opponent is a racist because it makes my job easier” lol fuck off clown
Why? The way I phrased it, racism was included for both sides.
I guess I missed that. My mistake.
You’ll scare the racist imperialists with that kind of density. One image of Country Joe waggling his fingers is enough as it is!
They should be scared, the american century of humiliation is nigh
Inshallah it’s already here
Mashallah, the yanks are already cooked
You best start believing in the Epstein Empire’s century of humiliation, Miss Turner
You’re in one.
Never thought I’d upvote a .ml comment but here we are. Extremely self inflicted century of humiliation as well
We are almost certainly more alike than different
That’s what blows my mind, it could have been a century of begrudging humbling if the bourg had played it smart, but they had a collective narcissistic freakout so instead we’re getting the century of teeth rightfully kicked in
Myth: Communism and Fascism are the Same
Fascism upholds capitalist hierarchies (race, class, gender); communism seeks to abolish them
Fascism arises from capitalist decay to protect ruling-class interests, while communism opposes capitalism.
Historical examples (Franco, Hitler) show fascists collaborating with capitalists, not communists, who were among the first to be jailed/killed.
You forgot to include some communist historical examples.
Hint: They tend to do exactly the same thing.
That must be why capitalists and the CIA love one, but hate and fear the other, right? Because they’re the same?
Never cracked a book-ass comment
Communists and fascists are diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive. Communists fight for the working classes, to collectivize all production and distribution to suit the needs of all. Fascists apply the methods of colonialism domestically in order to entrench capitalists and kill off labor organizers. Equating the two originated as a form of Holocaust trivialization called Double Genocide Theory.
Communist ≠ tankie
It’s just coincidence that it’s used against all communists then?
all communists? That’s a very big sample size
OK chief, let’s try it easier. What actual communists that have existed are not tankies, according to you?
Because my library socialist/ Titoist ass is called one constantly for saying such radical things as “the US shouldn’t be excused for their constant war crimes”.
Because my library socialist/ Titoist ass is called one constantly for saying such radical things as “the US shouldn’t be excused for their constant war crimes”.
I say that too. I’ve never once been referred to as a tankie.
A tankie is hard to define, but generally someone who is unapologetic when it comes to what russia and china do.
What is “unapologetic”? Like pointing out that the US is constantly is launching wars of aggression, while China hasn’t been in a war since the 70s?
There’s a big false equivalence that liberals want to make between the US and other large powers, that if ores the scope and frequency of US lawlessness.
“Tankie” is a pejorative for those who support existing socialist states, it’s essentially a pejorative for communists.
Tankie is a term for anti US campist, that chooses to ignore crimes againt humanity by other Imperialistic nations. (China, Russia)
Historically used against socialists, but the term gained another meaning
Neither China nor Russia are imperialist, though. “Tankie” is used against those supportive of socialist states, which also overwhelmingly includes people that don’t believe Russia or China are imperialist.
HAAHAHAHAHAHA, imagine calling Russia non-imperialist. Even the fucking Russian church calls it a holy mission of Russia to spread the Russian realm.
Imperialism is a stage of monopoly capitalism where domestic markets are saturated, and thus you must go outward. In this process, bank capital merges with industrial capital to form finance capital, and this dominates the economy, forcing export of capital rather than commodity. The world itself has already been entirely split up amongst the imperialist powers by World War I, as this was the primary cause behind it.
The Soviet Union was anti-imperialist and anti-colonial, and the dissolution of socialism in the USSR was devastating for all countries involved. As such, even if we were to assume Russia would be imperialist if it could, it inherited no colonies, only a broken economy, and the west had already split the world amongst themselves.
Russia is closer to something like Brazil than an imperialist country like the US, France, Germany, the UK, etc.
Mostly I saw it used against campist (US vs Them) people here. Much less often against idealistic socialists or communists.
This might better explain: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbkkh6GWn5Y
As a “tankie,” I disagree. Those who use the term certainly believe it to be along the lines you describe, I won’t contest that, but in actual use it’s a naked pejorative for all supporters of existing socialism. That support for existing socialism is the key part, not whether or not someone thinks the ideas sound cool, but instead what historical and contemporary movements we support. It isn’t even that those claiming to be socialists but oppose it in practice are more “idealistic,” the key question is on whether or not they support existing socialism.
No that’s not true
It fully is
It’s 100% true.
No, it’s 100% not
Yes, it’s 100% true.
Horseshoe theory on lemmy. This website really isn’t much different than Reddit lol, makes sense cause it was mostly Reddit refugees to begin with.
or a conservative and left-wing tankie, mirrors images.
